Chan & Naylor and PIT

Somebody just introduced me to C&N and their PIT product. I read through the archives and there were some vivid discussions back in 2006. At the conclusionof that thread, the verdict is still out.

Now it is 2 years later. What is the experience? Is it as good as it sound? I am not out to cheat the taxman but I don't really want to pay more than necessary.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.
 
Hi! Well I'm glad you asked because I was just about to ask about the PIT and about Chan & Naylor overall - I am getting a lot of mixed signals so I'm not sure what to think anymore... Was considering leaving my current accountant to become one of their clients, but I'm really not sure what to do anymore - feedback anyone??
 
Hi! Well I'm glad you asked because I was just about to ask about the PIT and about Chan & Naylor overall - I am getting a lot of mixed signals so I'm not sure what to think anymore... Was considering leaving my current accountant to become one of their clients, but I'm really not sure what to do anymore - feedback anyone??
better the devil you know?????
 
Hi! Well I'm glad you asked because I was just about to ask about the PIT and about Chan & Naylor overall - I am getting a lot of mixed signals so I'm not sure what to think anymore... Was considering leaving my current accountant to become one of their clients, but I'm really not sure what to do anymore - feedback anyone??
We paid for the 2-3 hour "health check" meeting. We went armed with many questions mainly in the area of "are we on the right track", SMSF and PIT's. We have heard negative feedback from others through our mortgage broker, but I feel that these people went expecting the miracle answers to property investing. We went purely to confirm that our plans were sound and if we had to fine tune the plan .... to find this out and to discuss SMSF and PIT's it was worth every cent, but it depends on what you expect for your dollar.

We found the meeting very informative and worth the money for piece of mind. As we already have our portfolio set up it was going to be very expensive to setup using the PIT structure, so we are leaving things as they are, but if we were starting out we would probably have used them to structure our IP's.

We are staying with our local accountant for tax purposes as he does a great job and is a fraction of the cost of Chan & Naylor. If you want to find out the intricate details of PIT's I'd definitaly recommend paying for a one on one meeting with them.

Martin
 
Evening All,

I went to speak to them September last year before purchasing my PPOR / soon to be IP. To get an idea of what they discuss, borrow a copy of "how to legally reduce your tax" from someone. This book is written by Tony Melvin & Ed Chan (I.e. Chan & Naylor) and in fact, the package given to you during the health check pretty much has photocopies from this book.

Although I had already read the book, I found the health check worth the money as it was good to use MY SPECIFIC figures in the discussions. I travelled to their Sydney office from Canberra for the day to make the meeting and, would recommend taking your partner to the meeting - especially if they are hesitant about how the trust / property investment system works.

I elected not to use their Property Investor Trust (PIT) as I wanted to purchase my first IP as a PPOR initially to gain the benefits associated with first home owner, stamp duty concession etc.

Like everyone else, I have heard rumors that the PIT is under investigation from the ATO and would be interested in knowing who has actually set up a PIT through them as I would probably be interested in using this trust in the future. Please feel free to contact me privately if you are happy to discuss the PIT and if you recommend it.

Everyone else, I'm happy to take questions from anyone wanting to know anything further about my impressions of their service.

C
 
I have mixed feelings.

I was a client of Ed's just before he hit "the big time". I could go to his one office at Oatlands and see him there almost unannounced.

In previous months, I found their client service just got worse and worse, not to mention their fees - to a point that I was being almost charged for breathing down the phone. Ed has long since stopped servicing his old clients and I had 4 different accountants in a 12-18 month period. It was appalling and frustrating.

I have since been assigned a fantastic accountant but still find myself repeating requests and having to follow up. he has an obvious overload of clients. I have an outstanding bill that I should not be paying, on a trust TR that I had told one of my accountants was no longer active 12 months ago. The best they could do for me was a 25% discount on that bill.

I find I am "stuck" now, as C&N have all my history Depreciation reports, Fees and Charges for refinancing etc, that it would prob cost me in lost capital expense claims to move elsewhere. My TR last FY was over $8000. C&N bill: Over $8000.

I find the trusts annoying and extremely time consuming. They have cost me dearly in all sorts of fees.

if I had a choice today, I would seek advice from C&N but I would go elsewhere for my accounting. I no longer feel like I am getting specialist property advice that another property accountant couldn't give.

Regards JO
 
I have mixed feelings.
if I had a choice today, I would seek advice from C&N but I would go elsewhere for my accounting. I no longer feel like I am getting specialist property advice that another property accountant couldn't give.

Regards JO
Hey Jo,

with regard to speaking to C&N but going elsewhere, obviously this means that you don't have their PIT as they are the only ones who offer this type of trust? Does anybody have a PIT setup from C&N and is happy with the structure?

C
 
Aye Carumba! Thanks for sharing josko - that saves me from investigating any further...
Hi there,

In all fairness to C&N, I do have four trusts and our personals to do. So I was not expecting $2000-$3000. I wasn't expecting over 8 either. :eek:

Callum, good point.

I am almost certain I have a PIT trust set up. I will have to check, but I'm almost certain my last trust set up was their PIT. I guess anyone would be happy with it, it works well but that is until the ATO change their rules.

regards JO
 
Hi there,

In all fairness to C&N, I do have four trusts and our personals to do. So I was not expecting $2000-$3000. I wasn't expecting over 8 either. :eek:
Jo,

What kind of position would you be in without C&N's help? If you had simply bought property in the higher income earner's name over time - would you be better or worse off today?

I am just wondering because I like to KISS as often as possible. I suspect you need to be a fair way down the path before trusts etc pay off (if you are just a regular schmo, at no risk of being sued etc etc).

Thanks.
 
it works well but that is until the ATO change their rules.
That is true, but I have been told that when the ATO make rulings concerning these type of trust structures, they usually take effect from the ruling date and are not retrospective?

Certainly that was the message I got from discussions with C&N although, they did add the caveat that "they can't see what the future of tax decisions by the ATO will be..."

C
 
Chan & Naylor

Hi Everyone
Chan & Naylor values every client and potential client's opinion and comments.

We will be more than happy to answer all your questions and help resolve any issues you may have.

Please feel free to phone Head Office (02) 9391 5400 or contact the office Partner who you saw directly.

Regards
Bianca (on behalf of Chan & Naylor)
www.chan-naylor.com.au
 
I have been on the verge of using C&N a couple of times as the PIT sounds like it is a great structure. However I have decided to keep everything in personal name at this point.

I recently heard Warren Black give a talk on trusts recently and he feels that the ATO will be targeting Hybrid Trust structures (like PIT) to audit and scrutinise in the near future. (he was once an ATO auditor and knows how they operate - according to his blurb) He doesn't recommend using hybrid trusts at all.

Warren Black, B Com, LLB ( Hons ) is a qualified lawyer ( with First Class Honours ) and accountant with nearly 15 years experience in taxation and business law. Warren is also an experienced professional presenter who has presented across Australia at many seminars on tax and asset protection.
Warren worked for 10 years at the ATO and since leaving the ATO, has worked for nearly 5 years as a lawyer in a private law practice, with a strong dedication for business structuring, asset protection and international tax. Warren has exceptional skill in the areas of tax planning, asset protection, commercial law and international tax.
Trusts still confuse me somewhat so I need to research some more before I commit to this structure. :)
 
Jo,

What kind of position would you be in without C&N's help? If you had simply bought property in the higher income earner's name over time - would you be better or worse off today?

I am just wondering because I like to KISS as often as possible. I suspect you need to be a fair way down the path before trusts etc pay off (if you are just a regular schmo, at no risk of being sued etc etc).

Thanks.
Why wouldn't I have bought negatively geared property in the higher income earners name?

Regards JO
 
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Josko,

You are not stuck......if you have kept all the records you can transfer to another accountant. $8000...is ridiculous! I had double digits in properties last year and paid my accountant less than $500. However, he is not as property savy...but I have read most of the deductions and have been able to check and challenge of his assumptions. Even if he missed a few minor deductions here and there which I did not pick up....it is still less than $8000 per year!

I also got advice from C&N...to their credit they did say it was at the higher end risk. On this basis I did not proceed and also due to costs...they were pretty upfront about this. They also suggested ways I could cut the costs by preparing a spreadsheet ledger...I did take this advice. These days trust protection can be set aside. Further, there are caps in liability so long as you have insurance and take reasonable care in your dealings the risk is small unless you are in one of the high risk professions - i.e. doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.

Also, as C&N gets bigger (this happens not only with C&N but as any accounting firm get bigger) you will be allocated with less experienced staff...the chances of errors happening is higher. The partners are more expensive and will concentrate on the larger clients. To be fair they also need to survive. That is why I use a suburban accountant where I deal with the owner of the business.


I find I am "stuck" now, as C&N have all my history Depreciation reports, Fees and Charges for refinancing etc, that it would prob cost me in lost capital expense claims to move elsewhere. My TR last FY was over $8000. C&N bill: Over $8000.
 
quote/Originally Posted by josko
it works well but that is until the ATO change their rules.
That is true, but I have been told that when the ATO make rulings concerning these type of trust structures, they usually take effect from the ruling date and are not retrospective?

Certainly that was the message I got from discussions with C&N although, they did add the caveat that "they can't see what the future of tax decisions by the ATO will be..."

C
__________________
Callum Newton
Canberra
\

I believe we are past that retrospective point when you consider the Taxpayers alerts and Private Binding Rulings against Hybrids or even go back further to TR 95/33 and Fletchers case
 
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Josko,

You are not stuck......if you have kept all the records you can transfer to another accountant. $8000...is ridiculous! I had double digits in properties last year and paid my accountant less than $500. However, he is not as property savy...but I have read most of the deductions and have been able to check and challenge of his assumptions. Even if he missed a few minor deductions here and there which I did not pick up....it is still less than $8000 per year!

I also got advice from C&N...to their credit they did say it was at the higher end risk. On this basis I did not proceed and also due to costs...they were pretty upfront about this. They also suggested ways I could cut the costs by preparing a spreadsheet ledger...I did take this advice. These days trust protection can be set aside. Further, there are caps in liability so long as you have insurance and take reasonable care in your dealings the risk is small unless you are in one of the high risk professions - i.e. doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.

Also, as C&N gets bigger (this happens not only with C&N but as any accounting firm get bigger) you will be allocated with less experienced staff...the chances of errors happening is higher. The partners are more expensive and will concentrate on the larger clients. To be fair they also need to survive. That is why I use a suburban accountant where I deal with the owner of the business
.
You hit the nail on the head there Sash. This is exactly what has happened. Most of the questions I ask cannot be answered at the time, and it is usually 48hrs by the time I get the answer back.

I am thinking you are right. My Tax return would have records of all the Capital deductions and depreciation deductions etc, that have been made. I was so shocked by the bill this year, ontop of all the trouble I had with them it was a little over-whelming.

Hm-m-m. What about the assumption that no-one else can manage their PIT's? How does your accountant go with Hybrid trusts?

regards JO,

PS: Previous POst: Thanks Dave,I meant to say wouldn't instead of would! BIG blooper he he. Too time restricted these days but should check my posts before I post them!:D
 
C&n

Oh dear!~:confused:

We live in Hornsby and set up a PIT with C&N. Were going to let them handle all our stuff from now on, but I am NOT prepared to give money away? Anyone able to recommend a good property accountant in our area?

Please?

Lucky88
 
... I find I am "stuck" now, as C&N have all my history Depreciation reports, Fees and Charges for refinancing etc, that it would prob cost me in lost capital expense claims to move elsewhere. My TR last FY was over $8000. C&N bill: Over $8000. ... Regards JO
$8000 - Unbelievable:eek:

There should be no problem changing accountants in regard to general accounting and depreciation records etc. The problem will be finding an accountant who understands their PIT structure. This is one reason why I will never use complex structures anymore. Using such structures especially those unique to a specific provider can increase the likelihood of you having to use their services no matter what the cost.

Cheers - Gordon
 
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