Cleardocs have you used them?

[Georod3]

I recently use clear docs to set up my family trust

I must admit it was pretty easy, only $137 I went to my accountant and after he charged me $440 for a chat about if I should set one up.

I already knew I should and gave him a complete rundown via email, so after my chat I get a bill for $440.

Anyway then he wants to charge $990 for a trust set up, that they do online too?

I sent them the example copy of the trust deed and asked ... Tell me the difference? After a very soft response they couldn't really point out anything.. Just a warning about the bamford proceedings, cleardocs have this covered

Cleardocs is backed by maddocks legal firm so I guess they should know what they are doing.

Anyway anyone else used them?

 

[Aaron_C]

The usual fees for a trust set up are as follows:

Corporate Trustee incorporation fee: ~$400
Preparation of said trustee's constitution: ~$400
Preparation of Trust deed + advice + taking instructions: ~$500

So all up around $1,300 I'd say to do it properly via a lawyer/accountant. I never go cheapo on legal/accounting advice because if you get it wrong it will cost you lots more. Plus, at least if you have sought professional advice, you have plausible deniability when/if you get into trouble with the ATO - which can lead to waivers of penalties and fines.

 

[coastymike]

Cleardocs had an online unit trust deed that was claimed to be a fixed trust for land tax purposes and following an osr request was found not to be. Guess you get what you pay for.

 

[Georod3]

Hmmmm

I guess so, it's not a corporate trustee just a family trust.

Considering no one could tell me the difference ! I mean it's 18 pages and all the samples that I have read are pretty much the same.

I have even compared it to a mates trust that he paid $1000 and we can't find any differences.

Surely a standard family trust is a basic document ?

If I'm wrong I'd love to know....

as they give you
Free legal helpline: This is provided by Maddocks in relation to Cleardocs documents. If you have a legal query, then ring the Cleardocs helpline on 1300 307 343. If you need advice, then we can arrange for you to speak with a lawyer at Maddocks. The firm provides a free legal helpline in relation to the documents Cleardocs provides. If you require other legal advice in relation to your particular circumstances, then this will be charged for.

Quality documents: We provide free samples of all of our major documents for you to access directly from this website (see under 'Resources' in the menu). We happily do that because we are confident and committed to the quality of the documents we provide. We encourage you to compare these with your traditional provider's documents - we think you'll be impressed.

Legal sign-off: Maddocks has signed-off all the Cleardocs master documents and all the online question and answer interfaces. The Cleardocs technology then produces the documents you order according to the information you enter in the interface.

Read more: http://www.cleardocs.com/partners-maddocks.html#ixzz1en936zBZ

 

[Terryw]

You have a person as trustee - what happens if you decide to put in a company down the track for asset protection purposes? In NSW you could be charged full stamp duty on the whole of the assets of the trust.

What happens if you had put a relative as settlor?

How did you consider succession planning on your death?

What about the asset protection issues of having 1 appointor?

Do you know how to use the trust?

What are the lending consequences if you had named uncle Joe as beneficiaries? Will he consent to giving a guarantee everytime your trust wants to borrow money?

What happens if you have a company trustee and are the sole sharehold and then you die?

How do you prevent your executor of you will from taking control of your trust and vesting it to themselves while your other relatives are still planning your funeral?

I charge $2,000 to set up a discretionary trust, but also provide advice on how to set it up, who should take what roles, loan issues, estate planning and succession on the death of the trustee and/or appointor.

 

[Georod3]

Covered most of that

The fun is that you can call Maddocks as well and gain all of that advice.

While im not an expert i am a professional person myself, i have read plenty on the subject and had all of these items covered.

1. Not moving to a company otherwise would have set this upfront
2. The guide tells you WHO can be a settlor - its very clear
3. Single Appointer and wording to cover this off in the trust plus also covered under my will
4. Yes I know how to use it .. plenty of documentation on how to do this plus @$440 an hour I wasnt about to get a uni course on family trust usage from my accountant
5. The trustee/s has absolute power regarding lending not the beneficiaries
6. Not Applicable - just a family trust no company as the trustee
7. My wife is the executor of my will, then my parents, etc etc. so no issue

what i find amazing is so far no-one has come up with any real difference in the documentation other than the advice that comes with it.

Happy to send anyone the sample doc to tear apart if they can .. back by lawers, reviewed by the CPA and many others.. hmmmmm

again happy to be proven wrong..

Im sure if you were someone that needed real guidance then yes .. however trust maybe $300 advice $700 ! maybe thats the real invoice ??

 

[Terryw]

The deed is probably ok.

If you know what you are doing that is fine. Just keep reading and be careful.

You didn't get my point 5 however. Say you had named someone as a beneficiary. Did you know some banks will require that person to give a personal guarantee, in addition to the trustee.

And do you understand the risks of having a person as trustee? The trustee is the one that is sued when things go wrong. They are probably indemnified out of the assets of the trust and if these are not enough to satisfy the judgment then the trustee's personal assets will be available to creditors.

 

[coastymike]

Exactly terry. The deeds may well be fine but structuring the roles and sometimes amending the deeds for the particular client is where expertise is required and costs lie. Plenty of people buy online deeds. Plenty of people also buy a will kit from the news agent. Plenty of people also fly economy class. But if you want the bells and whistles then first or business is what some want.

Given the plug for Cleardocs after 1 post I suspect you either work for Cleardocs or a business development manager for them. No problems if you are but the way you have supported Cleardocs and highlighted the benefits is not how most people praise a product or service. It is written like a marketing or sales person would write.

Happy for you to advertise your products but I hope you also contribute as others have. Let ussee what your next 10 posts have to say about other issues

 

[Georod3]

wrong wrong wrong - i have nothing to do with cleardocs

Sorry all,
You could not be more wrong ! im not here selling anything .i'm just asking questions

Im in IT actually for 20+ years ... do property investing on the side

always held property in my name, just went down the trust road this time.

I started this thread as i havent seen much on this topic ..

lawcentral is another site I looked at ... my attraction to these type of services is based from my IT background ... nothing more

More and more services are going this way .. cloud based.. giving professionals like you more REACH to those that need the help but dont have the time to travel around sit in rooms for hours waiting to get realworld straight forward advice on topics like this..

Seriously $2k for setting up a document ? hmm Advice I can get .. paperwork ... no .. anyway it feels like my accountant was light on the advice part.. (maybe time for a new one !)

Remind me to charge you $2k for a wifi network ($50 these days) ... or a mobile phone.. Sure I remember mobile phones being $5000 once too but those days are gone.

anyway ill be around .. this topic or another .. see how we go .. im probably the last one here with an agenda other than chat.

 

[Terryw]

Who is wrong? me? Why?

 

[Aaron_C]

Who is wrong? me? Why?

He is referring to mike's comment about promoting the website for commercial gain.

 

[Aaron_C]

Remind me to charge you $2k for a wifi network ($50 these days) ... or a mobile phone.. Sure I remember mobile phones being $5000 once too but those days are gone.

There's a large difference between getting a wifi network wrong and getting tax-law wrong...I have to side with the lawyers and accountants here.

 

[Terryw]

Oh I see.

Yes, you have to factor in some $$ for the risk of giving advice. Also in NSW there is stamp duty of $500 on the formation of a trust. In QLD I think there is none.

 

[RPI]

Think of it as insurance. the difference in setup costs will pale in comparison to the legal fees if it goes wrong

 

[Georod3]

like i said - the value is in the advice

So basically its like I said - the value is in the advice ... the document could in fact be the same..

Good professional advice is highly valuable I have no issue with this at all..

I guess then it shoud be as I said earlier Trust Doc $200

Professional Advice and Structure $800 - $1800

I guess my problem was my accountant was basically taking my name and a few notes and not providing the PROFESSIONAL ADVICE about the TRUST

and this is where I had the problem ..... its all done now so I guess we will have to wait and see...

I suggest next time you are selling one of these you think about doing it this way .. like for like on the value of the document .. the rest is in the skill..

cheers

 

[RPI]

I charge $2,000 to set up a discretionary trust, but also provide advice on how to set it up, who should take what roles, loan issues, estate planning and succession on the death of the trustee and/or appointor.

Reasonable and worth every penny I am sure. The $1800 odd saving between using an expert and an online service is chickenfeed compared to what you are going to invest in the entity or purchase with it or operate through it etc. Go see a professional

 

[Player]

You could not be more wrong !

Im in IT actually for 20+ years ... do property investing on the side

always held property in my name, just went down the trust road this time.

I started this thread as i havent seen much on this topic ..

lawcentral is another site I looked at ... my attraction to these type of services is based from my IT background ... nothing more

More and more services are going this way .. cloud based.. giving professionals like you more REACH to those that need the help but dont have the time to travel around sit in rooms for hours waiting to get realworld straight forward advice on topics like this..

If you liken the acquisition of a trust deed and the requisite nuances that may be necessary to suit your specific familial and fiscal situation, then YES, you alone are right and Terry and Coasty are Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. You aren't buying a pair of running shoes online.

Seriously $2k for setting up a document after a 1 hour discussion is pretty rich as far as im concerned.

Depends on the advice .............By the way, have you elected to have a personal trustee rather than a company (and the benefit of another firewall) to save money also.

Remind me to charge you $2k for a wifi network ($50 these days) ... or a mobile phone.. Sure I remember mobile phones being $5000 once too but those days are gone.

You can throw away a mobile phone or a wifi hardware/modem, try changing something (especially property related) by way of entity.....stamp duty and deemed CGT implications will kill you.

anyway ill be around .. this topic or another .. see how we go .. im probably the last one here with an agenda other than chat.

Hey Geo Rod.....welcome to the forum. The folk you mock with commercial agendas have been here longer than you and are extremely worthwhile contributors to this forum.

They do not blow their own trumpet yet help others with their knowledgeable contributions. Enjoy the chatting here, however whilst they are unlikely to bestow their alleged IT experience upon you, it may behoove you to read and listen to some of their opinions. After all, they aren't a generic "one size fits all" solution to asset protection and succession needs.................nor should anyone seek such merely from an online portal unless they have significant prior experience with such. It does not seem you are in that category yet. I still have my solicitor set up my DFT deeds and the corporate trustee. I don't wish to fall victim to penny wise and pound foolish phenomina

 

[Tillie]

Georod3,

I have seen Cleardocs discretionary trust deed cost $137,- and compared it with the one that a relative paid $2000,-. There is no difference. But the difference is as you said in the advice.

My relative would not had known how to set one up and even why does she need one and we are not even talking about how to set one up in the most effective way. She needed all the assistance and advice. Yes, she could have studied and read all that by herself I am sure that eventually the outcome would have been same, but her time as small business owner was more valuable to use for researching new products that she can sell and make money on than studying trust laws. So in her case money was well spend.

However you might have time, interest and intelligence to do all your research about trusts and how to set them up and you might feel that advice is not worth paying for. But again I would not recommend that everyone who wants to set up a trust will do the same.

 

[Georod3]

Hey Player

I wasnt mocking anyone ..

the Wrong wrong wrong referred to CoastyMike thinking I was connected to Cleardocs .. I'm not in anyway at all.

let me recap

* I just wanted to know if anyone could tell me the difference

* My accountant was not really offering any additional advice - hence me heading elsewhere

* Im not mocking anyone as you suggest, its clear that we have some very high level experts that contribute here

* I have stated many times that the document value is small the ADVICE is where the value and money is.

* I didnt place a corporation as the trustee - not for penny pinching by the way more as I didnt have or see the requirement - many simple family trusts are like this - its a basic vehicle to split income.

* The comparison to technology was about the simple document not the value of the advice - I can sell you a high end network however if you dont know how to configure it then - you will have issues...

* Finally please ... every one take a deep breath Im not here to have a rant Im here to ask questions and get valid opinions.

cheers to all ... and aplogies if anyone feels offended ... hopefully not ... I'm just asking questions.

 

[Terryw]

Before I became a lawyer I set up 3 of my own trusts on my own. It is a great way to learn things. Its like doing your own tax return in a way, you save a few bucks and learn but you could miss something substantial which could cost you much more in the long run.

The trouble with trusts is that there are so many aspects and so much to learn that it simply mind boggling! The tax aspects alone are amazing. Lawyers and accoutants need to keep on attending courses (costing about $300 per hour!) for CPD/CLE points and learning the latest changes and strategies.