Convincing partner to buy more IPs?

From: Manny B

Howdy there,

I thought I might as well initiate a new thread on a topic that is close to home for me & I assume the same may apply with many of you... that is convincing your partner/wife to purchase more IPs &/or to renovate &/or further develop a site for greater return (as they have fear of getting a greater loan)...

In my case, one of my IPs can be subdivided (fit 3br unit at rear) & the original home could do with a $15k face lift... to do all this it may set me back around $115k (rough figures here) for a great return (new rent plus increase rent of original place would be around $300p/w), which although I whipped up a spreadsheet with all the figures/returns, she is still scared to take out any further loan, which just frustrates me (I know the bank will give us that extra loan if I asked them to)...

Another case is on another IP I have, which is a large corner site that will fit a further 2 townhouses at the rear of the property (each with own street frontage), but again the same applies here...

Does anyone have similar stories they would like to share &/or ways they have handled such situations?


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Reply: 1
From: Dale Gatherum-Goss

Hi Manny!

I have always found it harder to convince my wife to buy investments than it is the banks!!!

Basically, she expects me to prove that the numbers work to her. If I can't prove it, she rightfully questions whether the deal is worth pursuing and why it interests me.

I find this works very well.

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Reply: 2
From: Sim' Hampel

Hi Manny,

Have you been to any seminars together ? Does she read investing books ? If you can get her to hear or read someone elses explanation of how leverage works and how to minimise the risks involved then maybe she would be more comfortable (I'm talking Jan Somers type here... not the ultra-high risk strategies used by some).

Convincing her to go to a seminar or read a book is easier said than done though. You will probably need to go back to the "why" part of investing. Do you have goals that you set together ? Has she "bought into" these goals ?

I had a great deal of difficulty convincing my wife that we could manage well over a million dollars worth of debt with relatively little risk. It was a long and slow process, but eventually I was able to tie her down and actually get some meaningful goals out of her that we could work into mutual goals (involved many long discussions about goal setting and what sort of goals we should be setting).

The biggest problem I found personally was that because we are young, and only really just now starting to hit our stride in our careers, we have been so focused in getting to the type of job that we enjoy and provides us with immense satisfaction. We are fortunate in that we both have managed to find jobs that suit our skills and personalities, and really enjoy the work we do.

So taking a step back and asking ourselves... what do we really want from life ? Where to from here ? and other such questions, was challenging - because it is not as if we have been unsatisfied and crying out for something to focus on as a goal.

We had to find something meaningful to us both that we could work towards. Something to give us the drive to go further with our investing. Getting out of the "rat race" was not really enough on it's own... since we have good jobs that we enjoy and that pay well... and the idea of sitting on a beach doing nothing sounds great for a holiday, but we're the kind of people who get bored with that very quickly - we need to be achieving something that is satisfying.

So as you can see, the setting goals bit was quite difficult for us. It's quite easy to just pick something "out of the air" as a goal, but if it's just something you chose because you had to choose something, it's not really going to drive you. We needed to find something that drives us, something we are passionate about.

I don't think we've found that big long-term goal yet. We have got a few lesser (but just as important) goals for the short to medium term, which has allowed us to push forward with our investing, and this gives us some time to ponder the big question. What's that thing that will get us so excited that we just have to do it ? Something that drives us "above and beyond" what we thought possible. Something that means something special to us.

Now that we have at least some goals to work towards, I have been able to sit down and work through some strategies and explain to my wife how it all works and show her how we will be managing the risks and dealing with such large amounts of debt. It has certainly worked. Just need to find that suitable carrot to use as a mechanism for focusing your minds on the bigger picture.

Hope this helps.

BTW. this goal setting process has only taken place over the last couple of months... so it's all very new and exciting.

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Reply: 1.1
From: Sim' Hampel

Good one Dale, I have also found that my wife is a lot tougher than I am on setting acceptable prices to pay for property. When I find a property that I like, and that my wife likes, I let her set the price that we should offer first, and the maximum price we should pay. If the numbers work on these prices, then we go ahead and make an offer.

I find it also helps with my negotiating, as I am then able to say "well my wife/business partner/etc" has only allowed me to offer $X... I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to do better than this. This provides me with something I can lean on in the heat of negotiation if I don't think I am strong enough to stick to my guns (hey, I'm still learning !)

Unfortunately this hasn't worked too well recently, as property prices in the area we like to buy have gone up by so much, and property is still selling easily so agents are not liking our lower offers - they are quite able to get close to their asking price with a little bit of patience. Oh well... I'll keep looking and trying !

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Reply: 2.1
From: The Wife






Everybody has to sell.....everyone is a salesperson! You have to sell the idea to your partner. AND like property , you may have to find out what her needs are for her to say yes to the deal.

What are her fears, and alleviate them, is she scared that you will stuff up, and whilst she will still love you, who is going to help her feed and clothe the kids?

If something like this is her fear, your number one goal should be to alleviate it, work on paying of the house you live in, and do all other property deals seperate from the family home, this is her's no matter what happens elsewhere, and reassure her, if it all goes to mud, you will get a second job to make sure there is food on the table.

~Before you criticize people, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away. And you have their shoes~
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Reply: 2.1.1
From: Sim' Hampel

Indeed TW... our first goal (set years ago) was to pay off our PPOR (which we unfortunately no longer live in since we moved interstate)... but it was our "dream house" and we intend to live in it again one day. I was not allowed to do anything else until we paid off the house - but that's okay, I was young and didn't really know what else to do at that stage anyway. It kept me from doing what all my colleagues at work were doing... losing money on tech stocks !

We achieved that goal in relatively short order... and the new goal has been... whatever we do, we are NOT allowed to lose that house.

Doesn't matter what happens to all our other investments, but that house is "sacred". This was part of the cost of getting my wife on board in investing. But again, this is okay - that property has already gone up in value heaps, we are using some of the equity to fund additional investments, and it falls into the "hold forever" category, which is not a problem for me.

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From: Duncan M

The "PPOR is sacred" is a bit of an illusion, whilst the title may be free
and clear, if you go belly up, so does the house at the end of the day..
Most Partners who have been convinced with the argument that their home is
safe fail to realise this..

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From: Robert Forward

That depends on how you've structured your purchasing and investing though Dunc.


The Sydney "Freestylers" Group Leader.
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From: Duncan M

Yes, but I'm referring to the 99% who invest soley in their own name.

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Reply: 2.1.2
From: Michele B

Good point TW. Always smart to develop your selling skills because this is something you have to do every single day....the finer art of persuasion.

You're responsible as a parent to persuade your kids to do the right thing, you have to persuade an interviewer to hire you if you're the right person for the job, it's your responsibility to persuade your business partner to approve your plans and budgets if they're best for your company and you owe it to your partner-in-life to persuade him or her to make good investment decisions for the future.

But only if you're competent of course!! This is where division of labour becomes an important part of the equation.

If you're especially passionate about IP, you'll have done the background reading and research necessary to achieve a higher level of competence. So your partner, though useful as devil's advocate, must try hard to put their fears aside and have faith in your abilities, at the same time providing you with the emotional support you need to take the next step.

At our place, my beloved (who thinks he's Rick Stein) happily dominates the kitchen while I, equally happily, hatch plans to dominate the world........

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From: Manny B

Thanx for all your great responses TW, Sim, Dale, Duncan, Robert & Michelle...

Further on my initial point, I have structured all loans in a way not to touch the equity of our home (which is paid off), but my wife is from the old school & believes in having everything paid off... I will take up Sim's advice & try getting her to attend some seminars with me (not taking NO for an answer) to see if I can achieve what Sim has (convince my wife to accept a greater amount of debt as it is quite easily serviceable)...

Thanx again for all your posts/opinions & looking forward to more posts...

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From: Simon and Julie M

Hi all
This is a great topic.
Could it be that you both want different outcomes from investing?
I believe in the saying " Two heads are better than one, especially when the bodies are moving in the same direction".
A good session of joint goal setting might help. Take a walk on the wild side and listen to what your partner wants out of life, investing or whatever. Look for common ground.
Kind regards
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From: Kevin Forster

If you've played cashflow, sometimes setting out the deal with the relevant figures as though it is a cashflow deal card works well.

Sometimes I set out the initial figures like that to my wife because she can then understand it and then look at more detail how the figures were derived.

Just another idea.
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From: Steve Navra

Try buying the property in your partners name.

Its amazing how it becomes an 'oh so perfect' proposition then!


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From: Felicity W.

I have a converted hubby, when I first started on the IP path he used to freak out regularly. Now he's worse than me when people ask about IP, he's so enthusiastic!
In the end, the only way he was convinced was by me taking it one step at a time, and proving to him that each step was safe and worked. He also went to an introductory seminar (I think it was Anthony Robbins) and they did one of those "how many people in the audience... etc etc" type scenarios, luckily he had some understanding of what I was doing, was one of the few people in the room with his hand up, and was stunned to hear himself being congratulated from stage for being such a smart investor. Instant credibility for me and my strategies!!! He still hesitates a bit, but his mindset changed completely that night. I think having the runs on the board first helped though. And I always did things one at a time, perhaps your partner is overwhelmed by having too many possibilities, all of which will cost money.
And there's always Robert Kiyosaki's books and game, they can certainly change the way you think about debt.
Keep smiling
Felicity :cool:
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Reply: 3
From: Michael G


I think "field trip" might help too.

Imagine the partner coming home and saying "hi honey, today I put us $x into debt" :p

Whereas, if they come along and witness you negotiation, and see the property and see how you do the numbers, then that may build their confidence in your skills, to either;

a) leave you to work it out

b) understand that they could do just a good a job and get involved

Either way an understanding will be formed.

Michael G
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Reply: 3.1
From: Jeremy Laws

You have found yet another way to never buy anything - AGAIN! Well done! A slightly more ambitious strategy for never buying anything than the previous master at this (Mistress TW)! I would suggest if you want something you have to pay 'market price'. Does your wife set silly low ball prices at a fuel bowser when you are running out of fuel????

Geez I crack myself up sometimes!!! One day you will shock me with another purchase!
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Reply: 3.1.1
From: Sim' Hampel

I wouldn't normally grace your post with a reply JL, but...

On 3/10/02 1:56:00 PM, Jeremy Laws wrote:
>I would suggest
>if you want something you have
>to pay 'market price'.

I would agree with you there... in the areas I have concentrated on, there is little room for bargaining - quite similar to Sydney in that respect at the moment. But this is not the point. When the market will bear lowball offers, this is when they can be used. I did not suggest that this is one of those times in the areas I look at.

>Geez I crack myself up
>sometimes!!! One day you will
>shock me with another

You really don't have a clue JL. I suggest that unless you actually know some facts when dealing with people, you keep your petty opinions to yourself.

You do not know me... you never have. You have no idea about who I am, what I do, or where I am at.

I am sorry if your desire to know me or exert some form of control over my life by your continual snide remarks is something that you feel is necessary in your life.

Grow up.

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From: Jeremy Laws

Touched a nerve it seems! I thought you had a sense of humour - clearly mistaken so I was! The purpose of the post to you was to point out that possibly in recent times you would have lost more money by making (on your wifes behalf it now appears!) low ball offers, which has allowed you to miss out on CG. Like a friend of mine who refused to pay another $1500 for a property which has since (6 months) gone up $25,000, or 40%!. The price you pay at purchase is _almost_ irrelevant - unless you are mind numbingly stupid and have no time to play the waiting game properly! You are smart enough to trust what you know. You find a property you like - pay a fair price for it and make it work. The buy of a lifetime comes up once a month, but you have to pay for it!

Now - your insults!

I don't want to fight with you cos I think you are intelligent, the flip side is that intelligent people are fun to fight with so maybe I do!! (thinks!! - complicated, so I can be!) The posts on this forum sometimes get very repetitive and don't seem to go anywhere. Harmless banter like this wiles away the hours effortlessly!

I do have a clue, I have runs on the board-so to speak- I was talking at seminars when I was 25, and have been advising people on retirement for about 10 years. I am NOT, nor do I ever pretend to be a guru. I do not self promote, have NEVER charged ANYTHING for my time with people wanting to learn - even for the few seminars I did do. Before you ask I was offered, and yes the money was good enough! That having been said I know enough to know how stupid it does sound when people say I have no clue! My opinions (and yours!) Simbad, are ipso facto not petty!!

I think I have a fairly large dossier of info on you, I won't list it here, but I do sort of know you. I think you have some living to do, but my guess would be a lot of people would say the same about me! If you'd met me you would not have written your silly post above either. I joke - you got serious!

I have no great need to know you Sim, especially since you now don't like me! There are good people I know who like you, and I think highly of their judgement, so I see no harm in knowing you. I exert no form of control over anyone I know - I may be able to offer them alternatives to what they think they know but I am not into (usually anyway) whips, chains, jackboots or Nazi memorabilia in any way shape or form. Actually thats not entirely true - I _may_ have some handcuffs somewhere, I own a South American Stock whip and I am quite interested in german WWII military aviation. I also own a nose cone from a V2 rocket! ...none of this however, involves controlling anyone, nor has it ever (except from 1933-March 1945 - but that _really_ wasn't me!). My remarks were not snide - they were as I have said harmless banter. You have now pointed out that me chipping you about never buying things is very personal, when I never (until now) thought it was. I suspect you have just told the world that you have a battle with your wife about what you buy, and how much you spend on it. You know enough yourself to buy well, convince her!

I am disppointed you saw in me someone who was having a go at you. I was genuinely thrilled for you when you bought your Adelaide hovels, and hoped once you had broken the duck you would be buying with a vengence - If that was what you wanted to do! I assume you want to be a 'player' due to your prolific postings!

Grow up, you say. I am not sure how to answer that. No one who has ever met me has ever said I have an immaturity problem. Quite the contrary, in actual fact. I am aware that people don't always say the truth, so maybe they have just been being nice to me! Or saying I am old for my age!

Essentially Sim, I don't care what you think, but since I like who you are I have taken the effort to be pleasant and reply. You are going to be very successful so I am inherently happy for you. I am slightly galled and will chip anyone who has a great war chest available to them and doesn't make use of it. WB (bless his greedy little heart!) is buying Australia at rate that will require land reclamation shortly. I have horribly boring things like ovens and insurance to pay for, so sadly I can't play the game at the moment. Even TW, who tells anyone who will listen that she doesn't own anything, never has, and has also never even signed a document relating to property in her life, wouldn't, I am sure, have large amounts of money sitting around doing nothing! It infuriates me that all the GA's MB's RF's and TW(cos I think she is a horrible little liar about not owning things!) are all out buying MY property, (stop me before I sound like SC!!) when I have no money available to do so! I would have thought Sim, that everyone who posts as much as you would feel the same!

Cheers - have a drink, I'll even have one with you one day!
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From: Sim' Hampel

Hi Jeremy, thanks for taking the time to write such a considered and detailed post, if rather misguided.

On 3/12/02 12:27:00 AM, Jeremy Laws wrote:

>The purpose of the post
>to you was to point out that
>possibly in recent times you
>would have lost more money by
>making (on your wifes behalf
>it now appears!) low ball
>offers, which has allowed you
>to miss out on CG.

Indeed, in this you are quite correct... capital gains have been significant recently, and I have indeed missed out as a result of perceived "inaction" on my part. You get that. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

>The price you pay at
>purchase is _almost_

Agree... when taken over the long term, a couple of thousands of dollars makes very little difference to the end result.

>Now - your insults!

>Harmless banter
>like this wiles away the hours

Discussions of my personal financial situation are NOT harmless banter. I have no problem with such banter in a "controlled" environment like a chatroom. I DO take issue with allegations or comments about what is my business and my business only in a public forum. It is this alone that annoyed me to the point of needing to respond in the way I did.

>I do have a clue

I was in no way making a comment or judgement on your abilities or track record. I have a lot of respect for what you have managed to achieve with your investments.

What I was referring to was your lack of a clue as to my ACTUAL situation. There are things more important in life than buying hovels. There are more important things in life than making yourself deliriously wealthy.

You have NO clue as to what my goals, my dreams and my priorities in life are. Any suspected knowledge of this is second hand knowledge, and does not represent the real situation. Indeed my exact situation right now you cannot possibly have any comprehension of, because I have not discussed it with anyone other than my wife. So unless in amongst your other marvelous skills you can read minds, you really do have no clue as to what I am trying to achieve.

>My opinions (and
>yours!) Simbad, are ipso facto
>not petty!!

Your opinions on my personal life and the way I choose to live it are inaccurate, ill-considered and quite petty. I do have a lot of respect for your opinions on investing techniques - even if I don't agree with them all.

>I think I have a fairly large
>dossier of info on you, I
>won't list it here, but I do
>sort of know you.

I know you know bits about me, but as mentioned earlier, there are things you cannot possibly know. Please do not make assumptions about the rest.

>I think you have some living to do

Not sure what this is supposed to mean ?

>If you'd met me you would not
>have written your silly post
>above either. I joke - you got

When the jokes get personal in public and go beyond "banter", I take issue. Not sure if you had noticed, but this is not the first time you have made such comments in public, and I have mostly ignored such comments in the past - they were not funny at all. I am more than happy to joke and engage in friendly banter about things like Adelaide, but NOT my personal life and decisions, which are none of your business.

>I suspect you have just told the world
>that you have a battle with
>your wife about what you buy,
>and how much you spend on it.

Indeed, before I met my wife, I had no clue about saving money. If my wife had not taught me the art of saving, we would not own one property outright and several more which put money in our pocket every day.

She is my conscience, and she makes me consider very carefully before I make a decision involving hundreds of thousands of dollars. I do not resent this.

>I am slightly galled and will chip
>anyone who has a great war
>chest available to them and
>doesn't make use of it.

Unwarranted assumptions again.
The only comment I have here is that having equity to spare is one thing. Having sufficient cashflow to service the debt on growth property is another entirely. Do not assume that I have the capacity to simply "buy now, but anything, just buy property" as you like to put it. Like I said, you have no real understanding of my personal financial position, or the goals and desires that drive me.

>WB (bless his greedy little
>heart!) is buying Australia at
>rate that will require land
>reclamation shortly.

I am not WB. There is no comparison.

>Cheers - have a drink, I'll
>even have one with you one

I do know that you didn't mean anything terribly bad by your post JL... I do know that you would be one of the first to genuinely congratulate me on my next purchase.

All I take issue with is your insistence of discussing personal matters in a public forum, and with your assumptions which are misguided and without consideration.

I do look forward to meeting you Jeremy, and I enthusiastically await the friendly banter that we would engage in. I just hope you will think a little more carefully about what you post in a public forum in the future.

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