Reply: 6
From: M F
Dear All,
Take this as some friendly advice from a serving member of the NSW Police attached to the Detectives in Sydney.
I wont go into moral or ethical arguments of the proposal discussed in this thread as I believe people do what they want to do. Often what suits them best, and come up with varying arguments to justify what most people consider to unacceptable behaviour so they can sleep at night. That's why the more extreme areas of this unacceptable behaviour are made illegal and it is the legal problems this proposal has that I intend to comment on. So for those of you who are in any doubt as whether this behaviour could be deemed criminal read on.
The NSW Crimes Act 1900 includes the offence of "Obtaining money etc by deception", section 158BA. This legislation sets out the following offence:
The accused; by a deception, dishonestly obtained for the accused or another person, money, a valuable thing or financial advantage.
"deception means deception (whether deliberate or reckless) by words or conduct as to fact or as to law, including;
(a) a deception as to the present intentions of the person using the deception or of any other person" - See Crawford's Proof in Criminal Cases (1996), page 202.
Keep in mind also the plain dictionary definition of being 'deceptive' : "to mislead, of a misleading kind."
and
'dishonest' - "fraudulent, insincere."
In summary, if you do anything which deceives another party, and results in you receiving a financial advantage you wouldn't have received without that deception, you are open to prosecution under this legislation.
If, as was proposed by someone, you had included all the conditions of the sale in the loan proposal with the bank and the bank simply missed it a criminal offence is unlikely. But if you don't disclose this info to the bank you leave yourself wide open. Why did you pay more than you had to for the property?? Why didn't you tell the bank of the conditions in the contract when it has a direct impact on whether they lend you the money?? and how much money they lend you?? . Would the bank have lent you that amount of money if they knew all the details of the sale??
The bank is lending you money to cover the purchase of a property at a particular price. It's painfully obvious to the average person and the court that the reason the sale contract has been processed with an inflated price is to get money from the bank they would not have lent to you otherwise. I haven't got my Crimes Act with me but I believe the penalty is a max sentence of 5 yrs gaol.
If I was given a case with these circumstances charges would be laid. For those who wish to try their luck, good luck explaining it to the court. That will eat a big whole in your wealth creation plans. Is it really worth it?
Oh and one more thing. In relation to the person speaking at the seminar who had "legal advice" there was nothing illegal about what he was doing. A large percentage of those charged with offences maintain to the end what they did wasn't wrong. Many of their solicitors say they're not guilty too. What people say and what is the case are two very different things. Especially when the people concerned make a living out of deceiving people.
That should be enough for now. Hope I don't get any of these cases from the banks when they send through their next lot of fraud files. I've got enough to do!
MF.
From: M F
Dear All,
Take this as some friendly advice from a serving member of the NSW Police attached to the Detectives in Sydney.
I wont go into moral or ethical arguments of the proposal discussed in this thread as I believe people do what they want to do. Often what suits them best, and come up with varying arguments to justify what most people consider to unacceptable behaviour so they can sleep at night. That's why the more extreme areas of this unacceptable behaviour are made illegal and it is the legal problems this proposal has that I intend to comment on. So for those of you who are in any doubt as whether this behaviour could be deemed criminal read on.
The NSW Crimes Act 1900 includes the offence of "Obtaining money etc by deception", section 158BA. This legislation sets out the following offence:
The accused; by a deception, dishonestly obtained for the accused or another person, money, a valuable thing or financial advantage.
"deception means deception (whether deliberate or reckless) by words or conduct as to fact or as to law, including;
(a) a deception as to the present intentions of the person using the deception or of any other person" - See Crawford's Proof in Criminal Cases (1996), page 202.
Keep in mind also the plain dictionary definition of being 'deceptive' : "to mislead, of a misleading kind."
and
'dishonest' - "fraudulent, insincere."
In summary, if you do anything which deceives another party, and results in you receiving a financial advantage you wouldn't have received without that deception, you are open to prosecution under this legislation.
If, as was proposed by someone, you had included all the conditions of the sale in the loan proposal with the bank and the bank simply missed it a criminal offence is unlikely. But if you don't disclose this info to the bank you leave yourself wide open. Why did you pay more than you had to for the property?? Why didn't you tell the bank of the conditions in the contract when it has a direct impact on whether they lend you the money?? and how much money they lend you?? . Would the bank have lent you that amount of money if they knew all the details of the sale??
The bank is lending you money to cover the purchase of a property at a particular price. It's painfully obvious to the average person and the court that the reason the sale contract has been processed with an inflated price is to get money from the bank they would not have lent to you otherwise. I haven't got my Crimes Act with me but I believe the penalty is a max sentence of 5 yrs gaol.
If I was given a case with these circumstances charges would be laid. For those who wish to try their luck, good luck explaining it to the court. That will eat a big whole in your wealth creation plans. Is it really worth it?
Oh and one more thing. In relation to the person speaking at the seminar who had "legal advice" there was nothing illegal about what he was doing. A large percentage of those charged with offences maintain to the end what they did wasn't wrong. Many of their solicitors say they're not guilty too. What people say and what is the case are two very different things. Especially when the people concerned make a living out of deceiving people.
That should be enough for now. Hope I don't get any of these cases from the banks when they send through their next lot of fraud files. I've got enough to do!
MF.
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