Dead tenant...

[Perp]

Here's an article from news.com.au this morning, about a landlord who sued a man's estate for rent in the period of 28 days after the man died. As I understand it, under the law, even though the man died, he was obliged to provide 28 days' notice to break his lease, and it's this 28 days that the landlord is chasing.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23106208-2,00.html

Of course the slant of the article is "landlords are heartless *******s" but I wondered: what would YOU have done?

 

[alexlee]

I would want what I'm entitled to under the law, though I would also look at the legal costs. If it will cost too much to pursue the matter, I'll drop it.
Alex

 

[peteb]

Renting a property is a contract, what happens to all the other contracts that a dead person has open i.e. mobile phone, applicance rentals, car lease etc etc ...

Do they all just go away too ? I suspect not.

 

[Perp]

I'm with you PeteB - this article just illustrates that for some reason, even though nobody would expect the ATO to write off his tax bills, or the bank to write off a mortgage, or the credit card bills to be written off, for some reason the bloody landlord is expected to suck it up!

Having said that, I voted for option 2, not because I think it's morally the right position, but because of this widespread perception. To me, $600 is not worth the embarrassment and ill-feeling that appearing in a news article like this one would cause to myself and my family. I'm a pragmatist.

 

[Pushka]

No, they certainly dont stop - the estate has to pay them out.

Slightly different, but my mother in law died many years ago and I was the executor of the estate. She had been receiving a pension from her deceased husband's employer for many years. Within a day of her death being announced in the paper, those pension people rang me and said her entitlements would stop immediately. Fair enough, she had gone, but this person didnt even ask if there were any other dependents - like a disabled child or anything. I would far have preferred a letter than a phone call from this anonymous person while dealing with distraught family members and making funeral arrangements.

So perhaps I might consider sending a letter to the Solicitor requesting, but not demanding that some compensation be paid, maybe even offer 50% reduction, but if this doesnt go any further then leave it at that.

 

[Monopoly]

Gimme a break people....

THE MAN SUFFERED A HEART ATTACK....AND DIED!!!

He didn't own a crystal ball and as such was unable to predict that in 28 days time was going to exit this world (let alone his !@#$%! lease agreement)??!!

Come on, how hard up do you have to be, to think that a month's rent (given the circumstances) is going to save your financial standing???

I'd write it off; I'm not that hard up that I have to chase a dead man's estate for a measly $1000 or whatever the month's rent was/is. His family would be grieving enough, without being exposed such heartlessness.

By the way, I wonder if the landlord sent a "sympathy" card to express his condolences for the family's loss???

 

[steveadl]

I would not pursue it. Whilst I agree with the others that you have a right to it, and would be nice if the estate paid it - I would not be chasing grieving family members.

Whilst you should be paid, it's not something I could do.

I would however be stern with the family after the funeral that the belongings need to be moved out ASAP so the house can be leased out again. I would assume that people wouldn't want to be in a hurry to clear out grandad's stuff, and in normal circumstances where he owns the place that's fine - but when it's a rental, as much pain as they are in, they also need to consider the LL and not leave everthing still sitting there 3 weeks later (unless they are prepared to pay rent).

 

[Strannik]

Gimme a break people....

THE MAN SUFFERED A HEART ATTACK....AND DIED!!!

Why should the landlord suffer? He is paying mortgage on those properties, he cannot say to the bank: "My tenant has died so i won't be paying off mortgage in the next 28 days." That's something for other people to think about, if you plan to die, make sure you have enough money/assets to cover all your liabilities and funeral.

 

[Superstitionist]

Interesting poll, I would have thought it really depends on how that amount of money means to that person.

In this case, I would choose option 1 as $600 doesn't mean much to me, but if it is $60,000, $600,000, $6,000,000.......hmmm....think hard.....think really really hard.....

 

[Monopoly]

Why should the landlord suffer? He is paying mortgage on those properties, he cannot say to the bank: "My tenant has died so i won't be paying off mortgage in the next 28 days." That's something for other people to think about, if you plan to die, make sure you have enough money/assets to cover all your liabilities and funeral.

I agree, it is the individual's responsibility to ensure that there is sufficient funds in one's estate to cover his/her liabilities; that is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do, however (aside from the fact that death is often thrust upon the unsuspecting....)

The most logical course of action, is not always the followed one.

In this case, the man was struck down. It was not an intentional breach of his agreement with the landlord. And yes, I hear you, "why should the landlord suffer?" he has a mortgage on the property.

Yeah yeah, I know. Although I agree that it is unfair that landlord is disadvantaged, and of course, if it could have been avoided, great!! But reality has dictated in this case that the landlord is/will be out-of-pocket, because of his tenant dying; (ie. the tenant didn't just do a runner here; HE DIED).

If a landlord is so irresponsible that he doesn't have landlord insurance, and/or good sense to factor in ALL possible worst case scenarios (such as these) ie. runners and the all-too-frequent interest rate hikes, then that landlord is (IMO) a total moron.

And if they are so hard-up, living so close to the wire that they can't make their mortgage repayment (on one property here; unless someone dies in all their properties at the one time!!!) then they need to review their investment options because they are in the wrong business!!!

At the end of the day, I hope this man (the landlord) gets his money, and enjoys every minute of it, for whatever length of time Karma will allow him to enjoy it.

 

[Sootygirl]

I doubt you would find any business that hasnt had to write off a 'bad debt'.
Chances are, since the deceased was renting, he didnt have any assetts anyway.
I wouldnt even consider chasing the money. For those that think its important to recover the lost rent, perhaps you should ask for a health check from your next applicants.

For heavens sake, how many times would this happen during your life as a landlord?

 

[Monopoly]

In this case, I would choose option 1 as $600 doesn't mean much to me, but if it is $60,000, $600,000, $6,000,000.......hmmm....think hard.....think really really hard.....

EXACTLY!!!

We're talking a lousy ONE MONTH'S RENT here, not a year's wages. It's not like the man was dead in the building for 6 months.

Besides, after the publicity this smuck is creating for himself (ie. he has already identified his location; Traralgon) the chances of anyone renting from him would be slim. Who wants a "heartless ##$#@" for a landlord??

IMO, it's just not worth the 28 days rent for the flack he will cop over it.

 

[Perp]

Monopoly and sootygirl, from an emotional and practical perspective, I'm with you.

I would point out, though, that I doubt landlord's insurance would cover the cost, because you have a means of collecting the money yourself, from the man's estate. The fact that you think that's in poor taste to collect won't create an obligation on the part of the insurer to pay out instead.

Playing devil's advocate....

What if he was 6 months in arrears and you'd won a judgement for that amount against him before he died - would you collect on your judgement? Or would you still write it off? What if it was 12 months?

What if he'd trashed the place in the weeks before he died and done $20K in damage - would you go after his estate for the repairs?

What if he was an eccentric millionaire living humbly, and actually had millions in his bank account, and that $600 means much less to him (or his estate) than it does to you?

What if he'd left a surviving spouse who couldn't afford the rent on her own - would you let her continue to live there rent-free, or would you evict her? If you'd let her stay rent-free, for how long?

I know none of these was the situation in the article, I'm just saying that I don't think it's black and white. Which I guess was why I posted this poll, and I'm really enjoying seeing the differing perspectives.

 

[wylie]

Interesting thread. I would just write off the month's rent.

Brings to mind Sybil Fawlty putting the account for the room in the dead man's pocket in case someone finds it and pays the bill .

If he owed six months and I had won a case, I would probably chase that up after a suitable time, because I could not afford to lose six months' rent. But I would not allow anyone to be six months behind in their rent anyway, so that is not really a scenario that would happen to me.

If he had trashed the place, I would claim it on the insurance and let the insurance company follow it up, which I am sure they would.

 

[jaycee]

Thanks Monoply & Pushka for giving me heart

Don’t know if you pple jhave sufered the detah of a father/mother etc, but it is not nice, it is hard & to have somoeone using the words "demand" and calling you "irresponsible" for nth having money reaey to pay for things (I don no think the gentleman PLANNED to have the heart attach & ensured he had no money on the side on prupose… the no money on the side could have been an existant factor for quite a while in his life… i.e. most likely, he did not have this when you signed a rental contrat with him, had nothing to do with im choosig to die ! How you can be so insensitive., sorry but…)

And yes, when my father died, an insurance claim against him for $000's was dropped - dead in the water. I got one phone call, explained, was offered my condolences a& never heard form them again -

I'd probably send a letter to finalise things & probably take Pushka's line of a reduced r3eturn (but I would probalby do this if it wa sa small business as well, that' sjust me, sorry if that makes me a bad property investor) But why is the word DEMAN used so much - demand the rent / demand they get stuff out withihn 3 weeks - what happened to ask / negotiate ?

 

[Sunfish]

Owing six months rent or trashing the place are not the matter of debate, it is the 28 days in lieu of notice. It is not mentioned how long the property was vacant but it is reasonable to assume it was less than 28 days although, in a strict legal sense, it does not matter, but............

If I were executor of the estate I would accept no obligation after the day the keys were returned or the property clean (if contractors were needed). The amount up to that time would be a matter to be settled, in the normal way, with estate funds. No funds in the estate? The debts die with him.

 

[Woodchipper]

dead tenant

What about the bond money would'nt you be entitled to withold that to cover lost rent in the event of death?

 

[Perp]

Brings to mind Sybil Fawlty putting the account for the room in the dead man's pocket in case someone finds it and pays the bill

I was thinking of George Costanza (Seinfeld) when the guy committed suicide by jumping from the window of a tall hospital building, and landed on George's car, damaging it. George goes to the hospital administrator about the damage to his car, and it's just hilarious how callous he's made out to be... He refers to the "still-living victims", meaning himself!

 

[Monopoly]

Monopoly and sootygirl, from an emotional and practical perspective, I'm with you.

I would point out, though, that I doubt landlord's insurance would cover the cost, because you have a means of collecting the money yourself, from the man's estate. The fact that you think that's in poor taste to collect won't create an obligation on the part of the insurer to pay out instead.

Playing devil's advocate....

What if he was 6 months in arrears and you'd won a judgement for that amount against him before he died - would you collect on your judgement? Or would you still write it off? What if it was 12 months?
As someone else here pointed out, I would not have allowed 6 months rent arrears to have accumulated; the matter would have been dealt with promptly at the time, hence not a scenario for me either.

What if he'd trashed the place in the weeks before he died and done $20K in damage - would you go after his estate for the repairs?
I would lodge a damage claim through my insurance in conjunction with holding all monies in trust (ie. Bond) for this rental property. Beyond that, I'd write it off as I would do any runner. I've been in business long enough to know that recouping costs can be more costly, and for this type of scenario, hardly worth the moral implications.

What if he was an eccentric millionaire living humbly, and actually had millions in his bank account, and that $600 means much less to him (or his estate) than it does to you?
It is not my place to pass judgement on how a man lives, be it humbly or otherwise. How much he has in his estate or what it means to him is not my concern. Now that he has passed the $600 means less to us both!!!

What if he'd left a surviving spouse who couldn't afford the rent on her own - would you let her continue to live there rent-free, or would you evict her? If you'd let her stay rent-free, for how long?
I am not a charity case!!! Although I would feel for his spouse, her survival is not my responsibility. I work with street kids and feel for them everyday, but I can't take them into my home because they have nowhere else to go. I do what I can, but the rest has to come from them. As the saying implies tis better to teach them to fish....

I know none of these was the situation in the article, I'm just saying that I don't think it's black and white. Which I guess was why I posted this poll, and I'm really enjoying seeing the differing perspectives.

As someone else pointed out, this is a matter of the 28 days (no more or less) hence my views (morally and practically) are based on the situation for what it is, a small price in comparison to the huge loss to this man's family.

At the end of the day, people will deal with this as they see fit.

 

[Monopoly]

Thanks Monoply & Pushka for giving me heart

Don’t know if you pple jhave sufered the detah of a father/mother etc,

Yes Jaycee, I have lost both.