Deductible Interest

Hi,
Just wanted to know what the forumites think of this situation:

1- I actually took a loan of 50K from my wife to pay down my IP loan of 170K. The reason was that she was getting 5% form the bank as interest on her deposits whereas i was paying 6.57% on my interest on the IP.

2- So we decided that she could lend me the money and i will in return pay her 6% interest, which is win-win situation for both of us.

3- As it turned out, we had pull that money out for some other expense after just two months and my IP loan reverted back to the original amount of 170K.

4- My question here is that does this effect my Tax Deductible status of my IP Loan. Will ATO see the 50K being the repayment of my loan and its subsequent withdrawal as for personal expense purposes.

I am just bit apprehensive as the lender in this case was my spouse....

Anybody having a bit more knowledge on this????

Thanks.
 
hkr said:
4- My question here is that does this effect my Tax Deductible status of my IP Loan. Will ATO see the 50K being the repayment of my loan and its subsequent withdrawal as for personal expense purposes.
I'm afraid the answer is "yes" and "yes". It's always best to phone your accountant before you do things like this, chalk it up to experience.
 
One other thing to be aware of. There is a lingering affect in that any repayments on the principle of that loan will have to be apportioned between the 2 amounts (of the 50k non-deductable and 120k deductable). You may therefore want to consider refinancing the loan into 2 separate ones and splitting the 50k from the 120k. Talk to your accountant first though ;)
 
HKR,
Was the IP solely in your name? If yes and if you paid appropriate int
erest to your spouse then according to my understanding it should not effect your deductible status.

This is beacuse you took a loan which you repaid after 2 months along with the interest. What your spouse did with the money should not effect your interest deductibility.

Please not this is my understanding and i might be wrong. Any forumites who can throw more light on it....
 
Thanks mdk 92 and djones...

Djones... My understanding is the same as yours( :confused: however please note iam not saying this is correct and hence this post).

The IP is solely in my name.

My wife lent me the money as she was getting better interest with me(6% instead of 5.2%) and i took this loan from here as it was cheaper to me then the bank loan. Tax saving was not the motive. In factThe interest paid by me to her has also been shown as her Interest earned and she is paying interest on it.....After i repaid this loan to her she has used it for her personal purposes...
 
Thanks Julia, bit relieved now. Also what kind of documentation should we keep for this, in case the ATO comes knocking? Any ideas...

BTW can you tell me more about the Donjam's case?
 
So it seems that the $50K is deductible to your wife (for the refinancing of the property loan) and the bank loan is 120K/170K (around 70.5%) deductible. Right?

With regards to the money loaned to your wife, the ATO would want to ask why you are paying a rate higher than the bank, is there a repayment schedule, where are the repayments being made to and where are they coming from, is there a written loan agreement, is there any security etc etc. I would arrange to have something written up very specifically to ensure that there is sufficient documentation to prove the loan and see repayments to that effect. The ATO typically consider the transfer of funds between couples as "at call" type loans with no interest rate or gifts so you need to show a bit more "bank like" paperwork and evidence to prove your case.

You can get away with the increased interest rate claim if you show very good reasons why the rate is higher than the next commercial equivalent you have available to you.
 
Hi Mry,

Thanks for your reply.

I think you got bit mixed up. My wofe loaned the money to me for 2 months and i also did not pay her a higher interest.

I was paying the interest to the bank for loan at 6.7%. So when my wife loaned the money to me she loaned me that at 6% as she was getting 5.25% interest on her deposits. So it was win-win situation for both of us.

May be that clarifies a bit...
 
Thanks. That does clear up some things.

You'll still what I discussed earlier though. Prima facie, it will look like a cash paydown from shared funds and then a redraw for "some other expense" which would reduce the deductible balance of the loan. You'll need to prove it was a proper loan. I know some might argue "But it was a proper loan!" but you don't need to prove that to me, you need to prove it to an ATO officer (who has the power of Part4A behind them) and what you are describing to me is exactly what one might say if you were caught out trying to claim a deduction for a private withdrawal. You will need to prove that this is not the case and for that you need physical evidence.

The other thing which is a big question mark is whether the withdrawal was in essence for "some other expense" or to pay out loan. I hope the money went out of your account into an account under her control and then went to pay for this expense and that there was written acknowledgment that the debt has been repaid. Anyway I think that would be a question for the courts.

The more formal your paperwork, the stronger your argument will be.
 
Here is more detail about Domjan.

Losing Interest Deductibility
Imagine how you would feel if you borrowed $100,000 to invest in shares. Then when it came time to do your tax return your Accountant told you the interest is not tax deductible because the money went from your loan to your cheque account in order to write a cheque to your broker. A recent AAT case decided that if loan funds are intermingled with other funds before being used for income producing purposes they are no longer considered to have their source in the loan.
Interest is not deductible on a loan unless the proceeds of the loan have been used to purchase or relate to an income producing investment. The link can be simply lost by paying some spare cash off the loan and drawing it back later, or not being able to trace the flow of the funds to the investment. The ATO’s own ruling states “a rigid tracing of funds will not always be necessary as appropriate.” Yet in Domjan and Commissioner of Taxation [2004] AATA 815 the ATO successfully argued that the placing of borrowed money into a savings/cheque account with other personal funds broke the link necessary to prove the funds were borrowed for tax deductible purposes.
The AAT is not the highest court in the land but relevant nevertheless. The sitting AAT member stated:
“I accept the Commissioner's submissions. Where the funds have been intermingled it is impossible to determine the use to which they have been put. In other words the purpose of the borrowing cannot be ascertained. It cannot be said that the expenditure – that is the payment of interest – has been incurred in the course of gaining or producing assessable income”
Mrs Domjan also tried to argue that when she deposited private funds into her loan account they were quarantined from the loan so when she drew money from the loan for private purposes it was simply a redraw of those funds, not a separate loan for private purposes. She also contended that any private funds put back into the loan after the redraw should go only towards reducing the loan for private redraws. Further she should not be penalised for using her private funds to temporarily reduce the interest on the loan and as a result reduce her tax deduction. The AAT found that the funds could not be divided so all repayments were to be spread equally over the loan and she could not choose the character of the funds she was redrawing from.
Mrs Domjan was in for a penny in for a pound. She even claimed that as the bank required her to insure her home because it was security on the loan, the insurance should be tax deductible. No luck here either.
The AAT also found that when Mr Domjan used a lump sum he personally received to pay off his half of the loan, the amount had to still be split equally between them as they were co debtors on the loan. Therefore even though he had paid his share back he was still entitled to claim half the interest that related to Mrs Domjan’s share. As a result of this it would now be prudent, when only one member of a couple is borrowing to buy their share of an income producing jointly owned investment, the loan should only be in his or her name, not both. Trying to get a bank to agree to this may be a problem. If the bank will accept the non borrowing partner only giving a guarantee and his or her name does not actually appear on the loan, the problem may be avoided.
What was alarming was the fact that Mrs Domjan, who prepared her own tax return received, a 25% penalty on the basis she had been careless in claiming the interest in relation to the redraws. The ATO’s argument being she had been careless in relying on a draft ruling after the final ruling had been issued. In the ATO’s world taxpayers preparing their own tax returns should have a knowledge of the thousands of ATO rulings available and check regularly for updates. The AAT agreed with the ATO. I have quiet a problem with this conclusion because unlike the draft ruling the final ruling did not cover redraws. So the ATO’s argument is really that Mrs Domjan should have followed up the daft to read the final ruling and then realise that by ommitting parts of the draft but not issuing a counter view the ATO was really saying they no longer held the view expressed in the draft. The issue of redraws was eventually addressed in another ruling 2 years after Mrs Domjan had lodged the returns in questions.
Probably Mrs Domjan greatest mistake was representing herself before the AAT. Though I have no answer as to how the average taxpayer can afford to be equally represented against the ATO and its unlimited, taxpayer funded, resources.

Julia Hartman
[email protected]
www.bantacs.com.au
 
The main issues you need to get some comfort on when deteremining deductibility in this situation are:

- ability to identify and trace through the flow of funds;
- no dilution of loan funds with other monies;
- dealing at "arms length"; and,
- proving the the bona fides of the transactions/contractual relationships entered into.

Lets look at each of these in turn...

Being able to identify, match and trace through the transactions is an important prequisite to a presumption that a simple "but effective" round robin of refinancing transactions took place.

Any absence of any "cross dilution" of funds as outlined in the abovementioned case would also help your claim for a deduction.

The apparant commericality of the transactions between you and your wife may also lead to a conclusion that you and your wife were dealing at arms length and would make it more difficult to argue the transactions were designed with some other motive (perhaps unrelated to earning income!) in mind.

Finally, while the absence of any contractual "written" loan agreements would not by itself prelude a deduction from being claimed, it would be prudent reduce your intended contractual relationship to writing.

Hope this helps!
 
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