Dispute over bill for "Services Rendered"

[Bmok]

I'm looking for some legal advice.

I have been looking for some investment property and some business associates of mine let me know that they could help me find good capital growth property. They are licenced real estate agents though they are not connected with any real estate firm.

I spent a day with them looking at land developments and houses of a builder that they recommended. They told me that they could get some land within the development that they showed me and would arrange for the builder to build the houses for me.

At no time did they get me to sign any agreements nor did they tell me of any fees.

Over the last couple of months, they have said that the land was not out of titles office yet, that I would be looking at a different sub-division stage, and then that the land was going to be 13.5 metres wide when I was looking for large blocks.

Within days of hearing about the size of the block they wanted me to buy, I eventually found and bought a house and land deal myself from another agent. I rang my "friends" to advice that I wouldn't be going with them this time. I mentioned that I might be able to do business with them in the future.

Today (4 days after ringing them) I received in the mail a Tax Invoice for $4,400 for:-

""Consultations, Structuring and Planning on the acquisition of Investment Properties, detailed areas and research house plans.
Liaise with developers for land and builder for house construction. Merge plans on land and rearrange landscaping to suit land demensions.
Introduce to Real Estate Agent and Property Manager in the area.

I knew that they would earn a commission based on any purchases that I made and it came as a shock when I received this "bill" in the mail when I had not signed any agreement for them to act as my 'buyers agent'. Plus they never introduced me to any Real Estate Agent or Property Manager when I was with them. And why charge me for merging plans onto a block of land that was smaller than I wanted. To top it all off, they had at the bottom of their Tax Invoice, Terms net 7 Days (for such a large amount of money).

In the period that they have been "looking" for me, values have been skyrocketing and I have now lost around $10-15K through having to pay higher prices than I would have had to pay if I had purchased when I was originally ready 2 months ago.

Would any legal experts out there be able to recommend a course of action that I can take as I do not want to pay for something that I did not agree to, and I can't afford legal fees.

My "friends" are really selling agents in my eyes as I have worked out over the last few months that all they do is find buyers for house and land packages from this particular builder. They never showed me any houses built by any other builder.

Hoping that someone can help me.

Cheers,
Bmok

 

[Bmok]

PS. Would anyone know what would happen if I just ignored their Tax Invoice?

Cheers,
Bmok

 

[Simon]

Why don't you call the Office of Fair Trading or it's Qld equivalent in the morning. They should be able to let you know exactly where you stand.

Good luck,

 

[Bmok]

Hi Simon,

The REIQ referred me to the Office of Fair Trading, and they said that it was a civil matter and to speak to my solicitor. My solicitor said that for $4000, it probably wouldn't be worth the costs that would be incurred to take it to court. Suggested that I talk further with my "friends" to work things out but before I do, I need to have some idea of how to handle them/ what to say etc.

Cheers,
Bmok

 

[asy]

BMok,

Firstly I would suggest that you get some real legal advice, or at LEAST ring the REIQ.

Now that I have put the disclaimer in, I will give you my opinion...

If you havent signed anything, and they are real estate agents, then they CAN'T CHARGE YOU A CENT.

Not a single cent.

I assume they are acting as agents in this regard, You said they were agents, but that they weren't associated with any firm.

In what capacity were they acting?

I still can't see how they can charge you without your having signed anything, but then that's only going by your post.

Let us know how it goes...

asy

 

[Simon]

I imagine it wouldn't be worth their costs to go to court either. I guess the biggest bluffer wins in this case.

I can't imagine they can charge you a fee without disclosing it up front or having a signed sales contract. It would be interesting to know what any buyers agent on this forum thought.

I wish you all the best - I know I wouldn't pay this without a fight.

Good luck,

 

[frenzy]

Originally posted by Bmok
My solicitor said that for $4000, it probably wouldn't be worth the costs that would be incurred to take it to court. Suggested that I talk further with my "friends" to work things out but before I do, I need to have some idea of how to handle them/ what to say etc.

Cheers,
Bmok

in nsw you can call the local court and see a judge for advice

btw l feel you can take the course of you did not sign anything so you owe nothing

 

[Kristine..]

Dear Bmok

Do not be sidetracked! Stay with the issue!!

The issue is: Did you sign any authority with these 'friends' to act on your behalf in property matters?

Yes: Pay the Bill

No: OK Here we go!

In Victoria there is a little piece of legislation called The Estate Agents Act, 1980.

In this Act there is Section 49A, 'Offence not to give certain information about commission':

(1) an estate agent must not obtain, or seek to obtain, any payment from a person in respect of work done by, or on behalf of, the agent or in respect of any outgoings incurred by the agent unless -

(a) the agent holds a written engagement or appointment that is signed by the person (or the person's representative); and

(b) before obtaining the person's signature ... that the commission ... subject to negotiation; and

etc


and Section 50, 'Commission':

says

(1) Subject to sub-section (2) an estate agent shall not be entitled to sue for or recover or retain any commission or money in respect of any outgoings for or in respect of any transaction unless -

(a) at all material times in relation to the transaction he is the holder of an estate agent's licence; and

(b) the agent has complied with section 49A(1) with respect to the engagement or appointment to undertake the transaction and is not in breach of section 49A(2) with respect to the engagement or appointment.



So:

If there was no legal agreement, then there was no agreement, full stop, and they cannot claim payment for a service (or even expenses) which was not performed.

Agents constantly introduce prospective buyers to properties, visit prospective vendors, give market estimates, door knock, hold open for inspections etc etc

It's all in a day's work.

but an agent gets paid ONLY ON RESULTS.

for a selling agent, this means when a buyer is found who is willing and capable of entering into a contract etc

for a buyer's agent, when their client decides to buy property which their agent has found for them

an agent cannot be paid by both parties without both parties prior consent, otherwise big smacks!! secret commission means a free holiday at Her Majesty's expense.



Probably the easiest and most polite (read: offering them the opportunity to 'save face') way of dealing with this is to fax the invoice back to them, with a handwritten comment across the face of it, something like

'Dear Boys

Your computer must have indigestion. It has sent this to me by mistake!!!

Best Wishes,

Dmok'


If they pursue it, ask them (politely) to send you a copy of the service agreement, you can't recall signing one, so you would appreciate a copy of theirs. Etc.

Do not throw anything out. Keep notes of when and what was said. Fax anything as it will be date stamped on their copy. Ask them to fax you things for the same reason.

Dmok, I must say I am appalled at the cowardly advice which you have received from so-called professionals.

Telling you to 'cough up' or else face legal expense greater than the bill is nothing short of a rort!

Any scamster could therefore send out bills willynilly and the other 'professionals' would simply advise the recipients to pay them.

Find another solicitor immediately. What a wimp! and an ill-informed, pathetic wimp at that!!


And after all this, have a nice cup of Tetley's, a Bex and a good lie down. Be nice and polite at all times, make out as if it is a huge joke, and invite them to see the funny side of their computer behaving badly. Refuse to take it seriously. and most importantly, do not let them have any hint or indication that you take this seriously or are upset by this.

Stay with the issue.

No signed authority, nothing further to discuss.

It will all return to it's native nothingness.

Kristine

 

[Rolf Latham]

Hiya

from all of this it seems like no contest doesnt it.

I suspect the invoice is more SGT than anything else

Stay your ground, on pure ethics alone they dont have a prayer.

ta

rolf

 

[asy]

Bmok,

I have a little story for you...

Last year, when I wasn't working, and was fully on a pension, I went to a solicitor for assistance with a family law matter.

I made sure they understood that I didn't have any money, and that the matter would HAVE to be dealt with through the legal aide system. I filled out all the paperwork, and was told that the case would be dealt with through legal aide, as I clearly fell within their guidelines, and the only thing I MAY have to pay for was the initial interview.

I verbally agreed to this, and off we went...

Some MONTHS later, I kept asking why I hadn't seen any legal aide stuff, and was told that they had lost their acreditation number (or whatever) and that they were waiting to get it back before they put the case through, but not to worry, all was fine, it would be dealt with via Legalaide...

Anyway, to cut a long story a little shorter...

The solicitor I was seeing left, and the new one who took over his cases sent me out a bill... $3500 With 7 days to pay...

After recovering from my heart attack, I rang them and was told that I didn't qualify for legal aide (even though all this time I had been told that I did) and had to pay the bill .

So I went hunting for information, and aparrently, if the work is going to be more than $750, I have to have signed a Client Care Agreement. So I asked for a copy of my client care agreement... They said, Oh, you don't seem to have signed one, we'll send you one out, and if you could sign it and send it back...

Um, no, not this little black duck...

Anyway, in the end, I stuck up for myself, and stuck to my guns, and offerred them $750 (the max they can charge without a client care agreement, but much more than I would have been obliged to pay under legal aide). And after some vascillating, they accepted my offer.

So, I guess the point is, find out where you stand for sure.

Make sure you have the facts.

Be fair.

Stick up for your rights.

asy

 

[brains]

Bmok,

Id send them a letter saying:

"See You in Court" and expect not to hear from them again. If i did i'd defend it big time. Sounds like an ambit claim to me.

 

[Bmok]

Thanks everyone for all your help and support. It has reassured me that I do not owe this fee.

Kristine
I would like to thank you for your detailed advice (must have taken you an age to find and then type out all that marvellous information).
I must protect my solicitor a bit. She is a family member and she did not want me to pursue the matter through the law firm with which she is employed. She knew thast this would end up costing me a fortune. She is working on the matter privately and is at this moment going through a reply to our "friends???".

Frenzy
In Qld, judges at the court house are not available to discuss any legal questions with the general public. When I rang the local court house, I was told that they just don't do it. It would have been great if they did like down in NSW.

Cheers everyone and thanks again,
Bmok

PS I'll keep you all posted to any new developments.