dodgy builder - is this house doomed?
- Thread starter poppy
- Start date
I would be talking to someone about it,the ones I have seen even had the drains in the wet areas that went in below the waffle pod into the ground come up above the ground floor and also sometimes go below the floor level,causing water drainage problems to seep in under the slab..I don't know what the outcome was as I wasn't directly involved in the builds but I know it was the waffle pods that caused it.The good thing about waffle pods is your main floor slab wont crack.
I would send some questions to the waffle pod people about what are the requirements with cement paths and driveways and are they allowed to be connected to the main floor slab or does there have to be gravel expansion joint before the cement paths start? If it is something that they are not suppose to do,you might have some comeback?
Is there a builder on here that can give some advise?
Thanks for everyone who has offered advice.
Got the verdict from the builder today. They are willing to "fix" the downpipes so that they match up with the relocated drain again. They will also put some kind of filler into the large gap between the concrete and house to prevent more water getting in and doing even more damage. Then they will check on the house in 6-12 months in which time they hope it might have somewhat improved. That seems to be all they are willing to do.
I don't see how the house is going to improve by doing the above. Rather it will slow down the rate at which the problem gets worse.
Whilst I find the builders response completely unacceptable I was at first at least pleased that the builder hadn't outright refused to do anything or blamed it all on us. I am now thinking that this is a tactic. The builder knows we aren't going to just go away because they say no. The works they are proposing doing are probably very inexpensive - I think they are trying to delay us/wear us down/waiting for our warranty to run out etc etc.
Got the verdict from the builder today. They are willing to "fix" the downpipes so that they match up with the relocated drain again. They will also put some kind of filler into the large gap between the concrete and house to prevent more water getting in and doing even more damage. Then they will check on the house in 6-12 months in which time they hope it might have somewhat improved. That seems to be all they are willing to do.
I don't see how the house is going to improve by doing the above. Rather it will slow down the rate at which the problem gets worse.
Whilst I find the builders response completely unacceptable I was at first at least pleased that the builder hadn't outright refused to do anything or blamed it all on us. I am now thinking that this is a tactic. The builder knows we aren't going to just go away because they say no. The works they are proposing doing are probably very inexpensive - I think they are trying to delay us/wear us down/waiting for our warranty to run out etc etc.
Poppy, is the movement just limited to the external slabs?
Inside is it just minor cracking in the cornicing inside? It's possible this may not be from ground movement - would need to see more photos.
The external slab movement is beyond excessive.. It looks to me like they did virtually no preperation to the sub soil here, and there is poor detailing of the slab itself. Inadequate reo at the corner and edge thickening under the posts.
This is different to that news article you linked to which is caused by the weather. This is poor ground preparation, detailing and construction. If it were my house I'd have a structural engineers report recommend the external slabs ripped up, and done again.. by another builder.
Inside is it just minor cracking in the cornicing inside? It's possible this may not be from ground movement - would need to see more photos.
The external slab movement is beyond excessive.. It looks to me like they did virtually no preperation to the sub soil here, and there is poor detailing of the slab itself. Inadequate reo at the corner and edge thickening under the posts.
This is different to that news article you linked to which is caused by the weather. This is poor ground preparation, detailing and construction. If it were my house I'd have a structural engineers report recommend the external slabs ripped up, and done again.. by another builder.
Thanks for your post. Inside there is a lot of cracking for a property of it's age although none of the cracks are really wide and not "scary" as the outside cracking is and could just be "really bad luck". The internal cracks include a number of very long cracks eg crack running horizontally along entire length of middle of corridor, lots of diagonal cracks eg between window corner and ceiling. The internal cracking started within 6 months of the handover but has never been enough to be able to be able to point the finger at the builders. I have had doors come off hinges within two years as well as lots of sticking doors that needed to be repaired (again, hard to prove that it's a builder fault as this is normal to an extent in all properties).
Probably the first indication of a possible structural problem was the steel frame surrounding the carport door buckled after about two years resulting in inability to open/close the carport door and required a fair bit of work to fix. At the time I thought the tenant had probably run their car into it and didn't want to own up, now it all clicks.
These major external gaps/cracks either appeared or significantly worsened in the last approx. 6-12 months. Property is 6 years old.
Regarding the structural engineers report, I have heard this could cost several thousand dollars. Whilst this may be a wise investment, is there any possibility that I could try to make the builder pay for this? The builder is clearly not interested in investigating the source of the problem themselves.
When you say external slab movement, are you referring to the outside concrete under the porch etc or to the actual house slab. The concrete under the porch was done by the builder whereas the back yard concrete was done by a concreter we hired. As both bits of concrete seem to be equally bad, that leads me to be believe it is the house that is the problem, could be wrong of course.
Edit: this is what builder said: "substantial movement around perimeter of the home which we suspect has been compounded by storm water down pipes not sitting correctly in their boots and movement of concrete pathways"
Just a quick search leads to these couple of sites,I have never goggled the subject before and only offered my personal experience on what I have seen.
As for talking nonsense,isn't it something that people should be aware of if their soil is not suitable or specifications are not met.
I suppose you use waffle pods when you build and have never heard of a problem before??
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Advantages_of_waffle_pod_slab_foundation_of_home
http://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=41881
http://www.slatergordon.com.au/medi...e-slab-warning-for-Melbournes-western-suburbs
So I have had an independent building inspector inspect the property. They say that basically there is a serious problem and that (their words):
They also provided a number of photos/details showing very large/extensive gaps/cracks that even if purely cosmetic - would cost a great deal to rectify and/or take many thousands of dollars off the value of the house.
I provided the report to the builder who continued to state that the property simply required monitoring during the next 12 months and the only action needed was to "realign" the downpipes with the drains and put some filler in the huge gaps in-between the concrete and the house. I stated to them that I had solid evidence (based on condition reports signed by both tenant and property manager) that the bulk of these issues had occurred during the last 6-12 months and I didn't want to leave the house to sustain even more damage in the next 12 months. He didn't give a toss, so I guess I will be going to VCAT...
- The slab will require levelling by either underpinning or lifting by the injection of epoxy resins.
- The storm water drains will need to be checked to ensure that they have not been broken or cracked as a result of the movement.
- The termite treatment box also needs to be checked to make sure connections are still in tact.
- this problem needs to be addressed sooner rather than later to prevent any further deterioration
They also provided a number of photos/details showing very large/extensive gaps/cracks that even if purely cosmetic - would cost a great deal to rectify and/or take many thousands of dollars off the value of the house.
I provided the report to the builder who continued to state that the property simply required monitoring during the next 12 months and the only action needed was to "realign" the downpipes with the drains and put some filler in the huge gaps in-between the concrete and the house. I stated to them that I had solid evidence (based on condition reports signed by both tenant and property manager) that the bulk of these issues had occurred during the last 6-12 months and I didn't want to leave the house to sustain even more damage in the next 12 months. He didn't give a toss, so I guess I will be going to VCAT...
Wow... so I mention to builder that I am not satisfied with their suggested approach of leaving the property for 12 months to "wait and see".
I politely mention VCAT and they are now saying that they will not even fill the cracks or realign the downpipes unless I drop the possibility of VCAT.
It is quite amazing the lack of consumer protection that exists in the building industry.
Of course in reality I will wait until they have applied their dodgy bandaid solution (which is necessary, ASAP) but won't fix the problem. Then I go to VCAT.
I politely mention VCAT and they are now saying that they will not even fill the cracks or realign the downpipes unless I drop the possibility of VCAT.
It is quite amazing the lack of consumer protection that exists in the building industry.
Of course in reality I will wait until they have applied their dodgy bandaid solution (which is necessary, ASAP) but won't fix the problem. Then I go to VCAT.
Then when the builder is contacted by them they will just say they have already undertaken repairs that you have agreed on.
I've gone through this in the past. They will string you along on promises and band-aid solutions until the warranty has finished.
A second inspection by another company might be good ammo. It might be interesting to put a level on some surfaces inside the house. Either the path or the house has to be moving for such a large gap to form.
Thanks for your reply, so you are suggesting that the fact we allowed them access to the property to perform necessary works (but not a solution), implies that we accepted the works as a final solution?
I am worried about the consequences of not filling the gaps or re-aligning the downpipes as the builder could argue that we contributed to the problem by not allowing them to do so. I could pay for it myself, but that could lead me open to more arguments from the builder that my tradespeople didn't do a proper job...
Building report showed major movement, cracks etc, they showed a ruler on the pictures, several centimeters gap in many places (not just gaps between concrete and house or cracked concrete, many other places, so it isn't just path movement). Building inspector said that slab issues needed to be addressed.
Lesson learned at this stage don't build I guess. I have had 3 houses built by builders and have had my share of problems but never a structural issue like this which is going to be so difficult to address since handover has already occurred and builder doesn't give a stuff.
Update: builder's plumber claims there is a storm water blockage on council's side and that is the cause of the problems and I need to make council fix it before they will have any further involvement. (they haven't done any work yet, down pipes have not been reattached)
I don't like my chances of having council fix the problem in a speedy manner (or at all), looks like I will probably be caught in the middle with everyone blaming everyone else. I have reported the problem to council of course and been provided with an incident number.
I would assume that council would have no liability for any damage to the property, just to fix the actual blockage, can anyone confirm (this is in VIC)? I would hope that they should be liable for further damage if they fail to fix it speedily (if indeed the builder is correct) but laws are rarely fair...
As far I can tell from the policy, my insurance probably doesn't cover any of this.
I don't like my chances of having council fix the problem in a speedy manner (or at all), looks like I will probably be caught in the middle with everyone blaming everyone else. I have reported the problem to council of course and been provided with an incident number.
I would assume that council would have no liability for any damage to the property, just to fix the actual blockage, can anyone confirm (this is in VIC)? I would hope that they should be liable for further damage if they fail to fix it speedily (if indeed the builder is correct) but laws are rarely fair...
As far I can tell from the policy, my insurance probably doesn't cover any of this.
Test the stormwater drainage yourself get a hose & start filling up the pipe. If the pipe backs up then you know that it is blocked. Push your hose down the pipe to see how far the blockage is. Also attack the blockage from the other side ie the street outlet to see if you can dislodge it with the hose running - acts as a double check for the position of the blockage.
(I had a blockage occur to our stormwater drainage when council replaced the footpath - they had crushed the pipe under the soil. I had noticed that the pit was draining very slowly & overflowing in very heavy rain. Council investigated & replaced the damaged pipe).
(I had a blockage occur to our stormwater drainage when council replaced the footpath - they had crushed the pipe under the soil. I had noticed that the pit was draining very slowly & overflowing in very heavy rain. Council investigated & replaced the damaged pipe).
Hi Scott, what you suggested I do with the hose is pretty much what the plumber explained he did. Not easy for me to test myself as I live interstate. When I contacted the council first time they said they couldn't do anything as their records showed no storm water drains in the street or some crap like that (don't know how there can be no storm water drains in an urban area, maybe I misunderstood!) I then contacted the plumber and got the exact details in an email and forwarded the plumbers explanation to the council.
So frustrating.
