Does high density living gentrify a suburb?

[qonyx_sydney]

Hi,

As the title suggests interested in whether a concentration of high density apartments in a developing suburb result in increasing median incomes for an area and subsequently lead to suburb gentrification.

I'm also specifically interested in Liverpool. Whilst i live about 5km away from the Liverpool CBD, i've never particularly thought very highly of the CBD area. It has comparatively higher unemployment, lower incomes than the rest of the Sydney. As a result there isn't a thriving cafe, bar, restaurant, arts culture in the suburb. With all these new higher density apartments that are being built will this mean that the suburb will change or will it merely house more of the same type of people.

I work in Parramatta and whilst you can still see many of the lower socio-demographic aspects of the suburb it now has a bustling cafe culture that is suited to residents with higher disposal incomes - which i think is probably contributed to the big business more than the high density living (however there aren't too many of the big high rises finished just yet).

Thoughts????
Q

 

[Television]

No, I don't think high density living contributes towards gentrification.

In my eyes, gentrification occurs as a result of a place being rundown/affordable (which liverpool is, comparatively) and near centres of education/culture/business (which liverpool is not).

Maybe in 25 years time when Sydney has increased in size and the need for satellite cities becomes more prominent, but I think if you're looking for gentrification amongst high density housing, there's better places to look (Canterbury/Ashfield/Campsie, though both are already moving with the rest of the inner west)

 

[qonyx_sydney]

No, I don't think high density living contributes towards gentrification.

In my eyes, gentrification occurs as a result of a place being rundown/affordable (which liverpool is, comparatively) and near centres of education/culture/business (which liverpool is not).

Maybe in 25 years time when Sydney has increased in size and the need for satellite cities becomes more prominent, but I think if you're looking for gentrification amongst high density housing, there's better places to look (Canterbury/Ashfield/Campsie, though both are already moving with the rest of the inner west)

Interesting thought about canterbury. I would never have thought of it... Ashfield and Campsie are definitely contenders likely in the same vein as Marrickville

Whilst it isn't high density - a gentrification example may be the southern highlands. I remember in the early 80s it was dirt cheap to buy and then all of a sudden it become fashionable and a bunch of money moved in the area. I may be mistaken (because i would have only been a teenager at the time) but would anyone know what the triggers were in this example. Or was it always an old-money area.

 

[Scott No Mates]

Or was it always an old-money area.

You hit it on the head. Pitt St farmers, a bit of noveau rich etc but also just on the border of the commuter belt.

 

[Truly Exotic]

Id say it depends on the definition of gentrification

according to wikipedia:
It refers to shifts in an urban community lifestyle and an increasing share of wealthier residents and/or businesses and increasing property values

some people say its when the place becomes more populated, busier and diversified industries=gentrification

so thats a big yes from me, high density leads to gentrification

 

[neK]

Interesting thought about canterbury. I would never have thought of it... Ashfield and Campsie are definitely contenders likely in the same vein as Marrickville

Why is that (given Canterbury is actually closer to Marrickville/Ashfield than Campsie is

If you follow the train line its Marrickville > Dulwich Hill > Hurlstone Park > Canterbury > Campsie >>>>> Bankstown

 

[The Y-man]

Don't know whether it is a cause or effect - i.e. developers go in BECAUSE the area has gentrified?

The Y-man

 

[qonyx_sydney]

Why is that (given Canterbury is actually closer to Marrickville/Ashfield than Campsie is

If you follow the train line its Marrickville > Dulwich Hill > Hurlstone Park > Canterbury > Campsie >>>>> Bankstown

My remark is probably an unqualified remark given I've never really spent considerable time in Canterbury. However as an Australian of Asian descent (Filipino) it makes sense as i have spent a bit of time in Campsie and Ashfield and both are known for their bustling asian street shopping and asian food. Much like Hurstville and now Marrickville....

No one has ever said to me... you gotta go to Canterbury for the best Laosian, Thai, Noodles, Lebanese

From a foodie perspective, Lakemba, Punchbowl and even Greenacre are more reknown than Canterbury (mind you i don't even know if they really are that comparable)

In my opinion a bustling food culture in a suburb is definitely a sign of inevitable gentrification

If you go further south west and take a drive through say Canley Heights, in comparison to the surrounding area it (including Liverpool) it feels much nicer and I would put this down to the number of cafes, bars, restaurants that are in the area. It has highly rated Laosian, Thai restaurants that feature regularly in the 'best eats' sections of newspapers.

Sorry a little off topic as this was talking about high density and gentrification

 

[DaveM]

General rule of thumb, the quality of a suburb is directly proportional to the number of $2 stores in the main street

 

[qonyx_sydney]

General rule of thumb, the quality of a suburb is directly proportional to the number of $2 stores in the main street

Not to mention newly gentrified suburbs always have a decent junkie to yuppie ratio

 

[Peter Parker]

General rule of thumb, the quality of a suburb is directly proportional to the number of $2 stores in the main street

Not sure if I completely agree with this. Although it may be useful to differentiate the top 10-20% priced suburbs from the rest.

Some above-median suburbs have shabby and vandalised main streets (eg Glenhuntly, Melbourne). Retail and residential markets can sometimes be different.

If our aim is capital gain, then we're more concerned about increase in quality over time, rather than whether it's considered a quality suburb when we buy.

Getting back to this preposition, I agree that $2 shops are more prevalent in cheaper areas than dearer areas. But their presence is not the end of the world.

As any trip to Frankston will reveal, there's a lot worse things people spend their money on. $2 shops there seem positively virtuous/puritan/middle class compared to the rest. There they're mixed in with payday lenders, pawnbrokers, gun shops, TABs etc (not to mention estate agents and politicians offices)!

 

[TMNT]

I regularly visit a friend who lives I east of Melbourne

Median price probably 800k

High end is 3mplus

Blue chip

Has at least five of these shops

 

[onion33]

I personally agree with Y Man. Big apartment blocks tend to be built after gentrification (e.g. Brunswick in Melb). While it might not negatively effect the price of a house or townhouse, it could slow down what you charge for rent. Just my thoughts.

 

[pully]

no high density living does not always gentrify, if you mean gentrify to be an improved upmarket suburb. some high density housing looks cheap and nasty.
but everyone likes different things. packing in concrete boxes with poor amenities, poor gardens/open space, etc.

the quality of the high density buildings and surrounds and convenience to transport all are important. if not done well the slums of tomorrow are created.

 

[Richard Feynman]

An slight aside. A little trick I've developed for monitoring gentrification in action is to look on foodie websites (for NSW, eatability.com.au, urbanspoon.com.au). When people start claiming "best breakfast in x", "amazing coffee", "I drive 30 minutes to eat here" you know something is starting to happen.

When the newspapers and good food guides start writing a place up it's really underway.

And when hipsters ride their fixies to then line up for 30+ minutes on a weekend to eat organic unicorn tear-fed crocodile pancakes at a really cramped, uncomfortable table, it's well and truly in full swing.

Other stuff to pay attention to is demographic shifts. Look at data from the last 3 censuses. Examine incomes, occupations, ages, religious beliefs, education levels, household makeups etc. If a place is getting younger, wealthier, better education, less religious and more professionals are living there and less in areas like manufacturing, that's another sign.

DA alerts (thanks television) can be set up to monitor applications too. It's a good sign when caf?s, coffee shops and restaurants are popping up on Development Applications quite often.

 

[C-mac]

High density can either gentrify or "ghetto"-fy a suburb. It all depends on other suburb and surrounding suburb variables influencing the mix.

 

[sanj]

excellent post richard, i agree with that.

 

[Deltaberry]

A newer and better demographic gentrify a suburb. Having a lot of high rise doesn't guarantee that. Only need to look at ghost towns in China.

 

[Richard Feynman]

excellent post richard, i agree with that.

I've watched it happen under my feet over the last 10 years

A newer and better demographic gentrify a suburb. Having a lot of high rise doesn't guarantee that. Only need to look at ghost towns in China.

I think the process can really works its magic when the area retains plenty of its character and has a great "feel"; too much high rise stuff kinda kills that stuff.

 

[Rixter]

Government, Commercial, Retail & Private sectors injecting money into an area creates Gentrification.