Don't have to lift a finger

Hi Alistair,

Thanks for the offer.
As an example.....
About 6 years ago I was interested in a retail strip - 13 shops zoned LMR fronting a v. pleasant suburb square. Good location 10km from Bris CBD. It yielded 13.5%, with one shop vacant. The tenants were nothing special, all small local business. They wanted $1.75M. The best finance I could find then was 65% LVR. I couldn't quite stretch to get the deposit together.

What sort of a deal could you offer me if I find a deal like that today ?

Cheers

Keith

If you found it now at that sort of return you would need to seriously look at how you could get the money together;).

Reading through this thread reminded me of all the circulars that used to come in the mail advertising 12-15% returns with substantial leases and director guarentees in place. This was most probably late '90s and I decided to stay with resi for various reasons but the main one being security of cash flow.

Cheers
 
hi keith
I wont write you a loan but I will tell you that today there are a number of lenders that will write a 85% loan and thats 85% of valuation not purchase price.
and the interest is around 8 to 8.5% and it can be fixed.
they are stand alone and they are off the back of the lease.
you do find lender that will term deposit an amount of money to cover the repayments and for that you can reduce your interest rate.
this is not a market for everyone and everyone needs to mitigate risk so I do not recommend it to people that have not done very good research as yes you can have property that takes months if not years to lease if you pick wrong.
 
If you found it now at that sort of return you would need to seriously look at how you could get the money together;).
Hi handyandy,

You can be assured that I seriously looked.

And the deal was even better than that - it was zoned for 3 stories, the 3rd storey would have had sea views. I didn't get as far as costing a complete redevelopment, but 13 shops, below 13 offices, below 13 apartments with sea views, would have made a nice retirement plan.

cheers keith
 
I wont write you a loan but I will tell you that today there are a number of lenders that will write a 85% loan and thats 85% of valuation not purchase price.
and the interest is around 8 to 8.5% and it can be fixed.
they are stand alone and they are off the back of the lease.
Thanks for the hard info gr. Can you name some lenders ?

you do find lender that will term deposit an amount of money to cover the repayments and for that you can reduce your interest rate.
Can you explain this sentence a different way.

this is not a market for everyone and everyone needs to mitigate risk so I do not recommend it to people that have not done very good research as yes you can have property that takes months if not years to lease if you pick wrong.
Absolutely. It's all very well not having to lift a finger when the times are good with a quality tenant. But you've gotta be able to handle the bad times too - think years without a tenant during this recession that we keep hearing is about to happen.

cheers keith
 
hi keithj
icf, is one off the bat but there are others that I don't want to put on a board as I use them a bit.

quite simply a lender will term deposit an amount of money to cover if a tennant stops paying there rent,
so you can sell the property
and in doing this you get a lower rate as there is a lower risk.
in sydney alone ( not including outside sydney) there are about 2000 lenders and lots of micro lenders, super funds.
I uncover about 5 a week and these I would never have thought they would be in lending but they are.
I have just found ray white of all people in the last month.
I have lenders that will go to 90% on comm super fund (not ray white)and before you ask no I won't put them up on a board.
it is good to think that a recession is around the corner
but they said that in the great depression that alcohol sales would die and that just doesn't happen
I have been thru more depressions than I would like to go thru
but you adjust and as long as you buy quality instead of quantity you will sail thru.
my tennants could have a nuclear bomb it us and they would still be sell feed.
my new tennant could have the market fall thru the floor and people would still want to eat.

three things to invest in
food
shelter
and finance ( this is my favourite its just to good in real estate at this time)
and if you buy a building with a food outlet/ or a supplier of a food item that is needed
and you fix your rate you will be ok recession or no recession.
lots of people push gloom I am looking for investments that are secure with or without recessions.
you can't gaurentee anything in life
its no point in me quarenteeing an investment for 5 years and the next day you get hit by a bus.
simply nothing is sure in life.
you work out risk at today not tomorrow.
if you get a valuation, a lender will tell you that its only good for the day its done
thats why its got a max 3 month life.
you need to evaluate on the spot and decide to invest or not invest from the data you have gained.
my rules
quality is number 1
tennant is number 2
term is number 3
sellability if need be is 4
and last is available funding
because if the rent doesn't cover the loan its no good anyway.
and no it does not in my book have to cover from day one ( some people think it does but we all have different criteria)
for me it has to have a way of getting to coverage within the first term of the lease.
I also don't like government tennants(again some love them) for me they are to hard to deal with.
give me a md/chef/chemist anyday.
but thats my .002
and keithj if you find that you have deals that are to big to bite yourself thats what networking is all about.
most brokers hate me saying but you need to pitch your deal to lots of brokers because I am yet to find one that deals with all the lenders in sydney alone.
and there is very few that are the same
the majors are different
never mind the second tier lenders.
here is a few areas that are into lending
banks we know them
listed super funds
large organisations and there private super funds
large real estate agents ( most have a lending arm)
building companies( most have a external lending arm)
large solicitors organisations (using there trust funds)
foreign lending institutions with offices.
I have one I found about two weeks ago and it is a lender here in sydney and its claim to fame is that its one of the largest powerstation operators in indonesia and its funding is from there
and who would be able to find them.
but yes here are funder out there
anyone that says I can't find funding to me is just not looking hard enough or the deal doesn't stack up.
and in both cases thats in the planning.
and reading your last post with regards development funding thats a completly different type of lending and again there are specific lenders that like that type of lending and I won't get started on that.
comm and development funding is an art in itself if you want fluid lending.
and reading dazzlings post he has someone with a fluid pen.
my ink is running out so its no point asking me to use my fluid pen.
thats my .002
 
hi Mofra
there is non of my game plan in it.
this is just information that lots of people have
they just don't tell everyone
like its some sort of secret.
I have my plan and I let people understand what out there and I am still learning.
I only put up deals that are done or can be learnt from.
I have a very tight time line and I don't go to the boards as often and if this help fine.
this is not my work it the types of lenders
people think to much on banks 80% lvr and your capacity to pay.
this just is not the case.
I did have one manager ask me once how I was going to service a loan
the loan was 29 mil I look at him, the merchant banker, and his boss
and simply asked
is he for real.
did he want a three payslips, an accountants letter to say I could cover it.
they just laught.
I invest on my own terms and if some one trys to see where I will invest next they are doing better then me.
but I hope you understand it and learn
 
Thanks for that. Can you give an indication of current rates at those LVRs.

Citibank's carded 85% LVR product is currently at 9.13%, it is generally better at higher LVR's to do a blended product eg you use an interest only loan for 70% at prime rates, 10% also at prime rates, but P&I over a short period eg 5 years and the extra 5% at unsecured rates (generally a couple of percent higher) ammortised over 3-5 years. Don't take this as something you could definately do, but it is an example of a possible structure for getting 85% LVR relatively cheaply, the idea would be to get the property revalued after 12 months and get the whole loan into the the IO bracket.

Rates in the commercial market have been going up as bank bills are quite high at the moment, we are placing most smaller loans at around the 8% mark. The 90 day bank bill, is currently at abount 6.7%, most larger loans are set at a margin above this. The lowest margin I have ever successfully negotiated is 0.81% so in the current climate that would put the rate at approximately 7.5%, that was quite a large loan though.

What is servicability criteria like ? Do they accept 100% of nett rental income ? Do they do equity lending - ie a standalone loan based on income solely for the CIP - how strong does the tenant/lease have to be ?

Servicability criteria varies very widely between lenders. Some have servicability calculators for smaller loans, but generally they look at interest coverage. There is massive flexibility in terms of things such as how much rental they will accept and it is heavily dependent on a combination of the strength of the borrower and the deal itself. There are plenty of asset lenders and lenders who require relatively little in the way of income verification, they are generally more expensive but often not appreciably so.

And presumably they lend anythng from $100K - $100M+.
Pretty much any amount. Smaller lenders often have limits, especially if they raise money through a mortgage fund eg there is a small lender I use quite a lot that has no money at the moment as it is all loaned out, so any amount is too much. Often there are trustee guidelines prohibiting smaller lenders from lenmding more than a certain % of their money to a particular lender or on one project, but this only affects people borrowiung a hell of a lot of money.

A comment with regard to Gross's comment on the number of micro-lenders. There are a lot, but most of them are really just brokers and get their money from the same sources. Bank finance is pretty much always the cheapest and should be your first pint of call, if the situation requires a little extrra flexibility or reduced income documantation then mortgage funds, who raise and control their own funds are often very good (larger examples of these are Challenger and Perpetual, there arer also some small niche players that are very good for specific situations).
 
Dazz...I'm so pleased for you. Can't wait to see pics of the building and of you and Mrs Dazz toasting a glass of the finest on settlement day.

Well, we just had 'the call'....settlement just went through. That's the first peg in the sand for part of the CBD. Now onto bigger and better things.

Settlement was scheduled for last Friday arvo, but there was a problem with the security bond. The tenant hadn't paid it when entering the Lease and no-one had chased it up. That's now in the bag (6 months worth of both gross rent and all outgoings) and so settlement proceeded.

We took the whole family on a show-and-tell last Wednesday for the final inspection. They couldn't believe we were buying something like this, with it being so nice and corporate like, with a pleasant tenant fully installed, and more importantly with a pocketful of cash. They were all used to our rubbish filled trucking yards and scrappy industrial blocks, evicting dodgy and violent non-paying tenants. This really is a breathe of fresh air having everythign done for you. Pay through the nose mind you for the privilege, but sometimes it's worth it.

Anyway, now that it's settled, we might sit back for a week or two before having a serious crack at something over in Sydney.

Life's good. :)
 
Congrats again Dazz! There's no keeping a good man down eh! One in the bag and ready for the next. Good on yer!:D
 
Great post

Haven't invested in comm prop yet but definately interested.

Was at a luncheon recently where there was a panel of experts from various commercial property co.s I'm talking CEOs etc of public co as well as finance commentators. There underlying message seemd to think that there is going to be a shortage of commercial office space (in Sydney) in the coming years and
there were predictions of rents rising by 30 to 40% (sydeny CBD) in the next couple of years.

They also thought that eco friendly (not sure exactly what is meant by that) office space would become in vogue and be able to demand a premium.

Gross has outlined some basic criteria for commercial prop investment.
Would anyone be able to elaborate on what selection criteria/ lease terms
etc etc I should use as a basis for my comm prop search?

eg: I have found a small commercial office space in Pitt St Sydney $200-$300K
returning 6.9% (Yet to confirm whether this is gross or nett)
Art Deco building, tenant in place. However thats as much as i know at this point in time,
BUT would like to know what I need to ask agent and what pitfalls I need to be aware of?

Is Strata the best in Commercial property?
What alternatives are there?

Any info appreciated
Thanks
Greg
 
Was at a luncheon recently where there was a panel of experts from various commercial property co.s I'm talking CEOs etc of public co as well as finance commentators. There underlying message seemd to think that there is going to be a shortage of commercial office space (in Sydney) in the coming years and
there were predictions of rents rising by 30 to 40% (sydeny CBD) in the next couple of years.
Extremely interesting - by all accounts (and I'm also paraphrasing Chris Lang) the rule of thumb is a 18-19 year property cycle, expected peak 07-08.

Supply and demand set to break the old property cycle, or will interest rate rises fulful the expectations? Bond players almost certain of a 25 basis point rise by the end of this year.
 
Hi Dazzling,

Really good to read some of your posts on here as I have only recently joined. One thing you said:

Dip your toe in your local water and see how you swim. You cannot possibly be an expert swimmer by standing by the side of the pool and asking for exact details on what it is like in the pool.

I think that is really important. One needs to take action in order to gain experience and learn by mistakes along the way.

One question I have for you though, when you first started out in just IPs did you have a specific loan structure worked out that you intended to carry through into commercial? Or did it change over time as you saw fit?

I am only starting out myself at the moment with 1 IP last year and buying my first PPOR at the moment.

Regards,

Raja
 
I justed rolled with the punches on the first non-ressy loan, 'cos I had absolutely no clue....but that didn't hold us back.

We jumped in boots and all and started splashing around. Finance was the same as our houses, same as the contracts to buy. Despite everyone thinking their are big scary monsters around every corner when you diverge away from houses and units....it's all quite similar when you get down to it.

Looking back, we weren't that methodical and studious with our decision making, or that deliberate with our strategies. Sounds way too structured and organised for me. The wife and I are not robots, and we never act like robots. Rolling with the punches as they come through sometimes opens up fantastic opportunities that wouldn't be there if you rigidly stuck to some formula.

We initially just bought what looked really good and setup, cos we didn't know any better. It's been OK I suppose, providing about $ 400 p.w. free cashflow initially, now up to 660 p.w. Capital growth however has been cr*p, growing only 600K in 3 years. Looking back, we should of bought a vacant block of land with the dosh....would of been far in front, but as usual serviceability always bites.

We then graduated to utter dumps, with lotsa headaches and either no tenants or either lots of tenants, none of whom paid a cent a rent. This is usually what everyone fears the most, buying some nice well to do place with a tenant who ups and leaves and then they are left holding the can with no rental income. This scenario of no tenant and no income initially was our specific strategy....conquering other greatest fears and turning it around. They have been the ones where we have made the most money - by far.

This thread discusses our most recent one, where once again everything is done and the tenant is nice and safe and secure. We think we already know what the outcome of this one is going to be....a bit of nice cashflow but bugger all growth.

We've decided to go back to our old stomping ground of ugly warehouses with either no tenants or accompanying ugly non-paying tenants....much more moolah fixing up those basket cases, and I suppose a bit of a challenge. There's nothing like controlling big chunks of land that are cashflow positive with a bit of work and a bit of negotiation with a malleable tenant.
 
Hi Dazzling

Well done - looks flash!!, next time I'm in town I'll do a little foyer browsing and see if I can identify your latest purchase. L.O.L :D

I am with you on the disclosure side of things, I thought initially giving as much info as possibile a good thing. I now have other ideas, I have found that the most valuable info is "where and what to research" numbers mean little as every deal is different and each investor has a different end result in mind.

I see you have going back to dumps, it is very satisfying taking a pigs ear and turning it into a silk purse. I love that bit, the standing back at the end and admiring my handy work with great satisfaction.:D
 
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