Effects of Recession on Property

VYV8 said:
lots of other things were a LOT more expensive (whitegoods, clothes, cars, travel, some foods, etc) than they are now - a fact conveniently overlooked by some. People also had lower real incomes, and credit was far, far harder to get.

The importance of this cannot be overestimated in my mind. If you add child care which is heavily subsidised now but didn't exist when I was raising a family, which enabled the double income family it is easy to see where the extra MONEY came from to push house prices up.

If you believe in the averages you must also believe that we will be able to increase our family's disposable income at the same average rate! Without that wealth increase property will struggle to do better than inflation. I doubt the wealth that some are achieving today is widespread across the community.
 
Typically, I would expect well located, quality property to outperform the market average. The question would be whether that performance would be sufficient to justify purchasing property over another asset type (that may not be able to be geared as highly).

And that is the advantages of resi property in nutshell, I guess. You can leverage it to a greater extent and use your knowledge to buy well-located property. Even if average prices track inflation, rents should too so eventually you will have an income producing, inflation resistant investment.
 
Originally Posted by VYBerlinaV8 View Post
Typically, I would expect well located, quality property to outperform the market average.

Trust me! The example above, my grandfather's property really was a well located, quality property. Maybe it did actually do better than others. I have no data. Either way it was a terrible investment while being a lovely place to live.

You may have gathered I simply don't trust generalities. In my mind they are generally wrong. :D
 
My Grandfather bought a house in the late 19th century. One of the best houses on The Strand: Waterfront property. He was a classic Man of the house and kept things to himself, but I think I recall my mother saying he paid over 25,000 pounds for it.

Fast forward to Nov. '79 and the estate sold it for $60,000. In broad terms it doubled in 90 - 100 years. That is consistent with Hobo's graph. There were two world wars which decimated the young men and a depression which destroyed wealth during that time so maybe it's what you would expect.

Note: That property might have been worth $3 mill in '07 so you can understand why I don't put much faith in "averages". I have neither the time nor the patience to wait.

Interesting story, Sunfish, and sounds like a beautiful place! It does seem like an extraordinary amount of money for the late 19th century. I think my parents bought their house -architect-designed 4 bed 2 bath - for about $10k back in the late 60s.
 
Interesting story, Sunfish, and sounds like a beautiful place! It does seem like an extraordinary amount of money for the late 19th century. I think my parents bought their house -architect-designed 4 bed 2 bath - for about $10k back in the late 60s.

On reflection it does sound a lot but Mum passed on 30 years ago, before I had any interest in property. It would not have been less than 15 thou pounds which doesn't materially affect the story.

I bought my house in '68 for $10,000.
 
VYV8 said:

The importance of this cannot be overestimated in my mind. If you add child care which is heavily subsidised now but didn't exist when I was raising a family, which enabled the double income family it is easy to see where the extra MONEY came from to push house prices up.

If you believe in the averages you must also believe that we will be able to increase our family's disposable income at the same average rate! Without that wealth increase property will struggle to do better than inflation. I doubt the wealth that some are achieving today is widespread across the community.

I would find this more convincing if the same pattern could be seen across the western world.
 
VYV8 said:

The importance of this cannot be overestimated in my mind. If you add child care which is heavily subsidised now but didn't exist when I was raising a family, which enabled the double income family it is easy to see where the extra MONEY came from to push house prices up.

If you believe in the averages you must also believe that we will be able to increase our family's disposable income at the same average rate! Without that wealth increase property will struggle to do better than inflation. I doubt the wealth that some are achieving today is widespread across the community.

cheezes Sunfish, we are starting to agree more and more.
The only difference is that i still concentrate on income producing assets.
But the basic 'theory' is very much the same.
 
Originally Posted by VYBerlinaV8 View Post


Trust me! The example above, my grandfather's property really was a well located, quality property. Maybe it did actually do better than others. I have no data. Either way it was a terrible investment while being a lovely place to live.

You may have gathered I simply don't trust generalities. In my mind they are generally wrong. :D

That's fair enough, but it's a single example with quite a few unknowns attached to it. That said, generalities are not intelligent, and I probably should have known better.
 
Over time society changes, and changing house prices is a symptom. Don't forget that although houses are a lot more expensive than in 1952, lots of other things were a LOT more expensive (whitegoods, clothes, cars, travel, some foods, etc) than they are now - a fact conveniently overlooked by some. People also had lower real incomes, and credit was far, far harder to get.

Will house prices revert to pre-1952 levels? Anything's possible, but I think it's extremely unlikely. The whole country would pretty much have to go broke first.

When you say society I think it is more specific than society changing generally.

In the early 50s rent and other controls were lifted around housing. Many have noticed this jump in stapledons graph and I have heard this mentioned before here and elsewhere.

More recent the bigger move on the chart; In the mid 90s in Sydney urban consolidation policy was adopted and ratcheted up over time.

It followed later then in other capitals.

I think policy is the key to the woes or strength in property. You can have any amount of economic activity but in a vast continent such as ours depending on policy you can still have, falls, rises or something in between. We have had dramatic periods of population growth and / or economic growth over the 100 odd years in that graph and this in isolation does not change house prices by much.

Also you can spend as much as you like on other things or have times of larger disposable income but in the end in a country like ours where predominantly residential land can be made outside of prime areas costs should be the governing factor not demand. It is recent years where demand drives housing above all else when the government has controlled the supply side to the point it just ticks away with any excess taxed out of it.

It is the non prime areas becoming so expensive to develop that has pushed prices to the levels they are now IMO. Credit and disposable income is an enabler, sure, but in isolation no matter how much cash you throw at something if it can be made efficiently price should follow costs plus a fair margin.

If disposable incomes were such a large factor than there would be swings like todays every 15 years or so on that chart.

For the Future;

If the government in response to falling activity in home building starts to subsidise development or pare back developer levies than I imagine we are likely to move further into the negative. Look for policies like that in QLD with 10k grants for new builds only. If on the other hand to support activity they support prices generally as they have done in the past with grants for purchase of any dwelling then activity increases will only be secondary to rises in price.

How do you recognise the difference between these policies? Any policy that is aimed at reducing the cost of new homes should over time place a drag on existing house prices. Once the initial activity rush is worked through (think Melbourne FHOGBoosts only for new homes especially in regions). While people may not think it there is a ratio / connexion between even existing housing in prime areas and new housingn in non prime areas. You will not have new 4br homes on the fringe of Melbourne selling at $150,000.00 with housing in Toorak selling for 2Million. It will not happen. Suburbs radiating out are affected by what price the new fringe houses sell for.

On the other hand any policy that aims to increase price levels to bring on activity in a secondary fashion (FHOGBoosts, shared equity schemes etc) will have a generally positive effect especially in the short term.

The issue with either policy as with all government policies is they can easily over reach and cause larger problems down the line. Whether they over reached in late 2008 will become apparent over the next 12months. The other issue with a housing market driven only by demand with supply manipulated to meet demand at a certain price is demand swings much more wildly than supply. Supply costs if left to their own devices with land on the fringe valued solely at alternative use value move roughly with inflation. This cost can be negative over 12 months but not dramatically so. Even in the great depression 10% p.a. deflation was considered dramatic. In Perth we have nearly witnessed this in housing over the last 12 months.

The most sustainable housing markets it has been found in recent years after the US sub prime crisis are those with the least government interferance. Even in the USA where the government all but stayed out of the market the GFC is nothing but a blip on house prices in those centres.
 
Who's memory goes back to Keating and the 17% yrs , wasn't there a global recession at that point ?

I bought my first property at that exact time but rates didn't make much difference because the property was so cheap anyway .

Yeah policy stuff makes or breaks anything I reckon and it's my guess Gillard's going to law and tax our economy and in particular our housing market , out of business.
Imo Gov's here have been doing it with small business , almost any business these days , for yrs . Chipping away at them with regulations and taxes , bit by bit ,until we have the now and it just not being worthwhile or viable anymore for many in OZ.

Trying to create the tightest most perfect nanny state in the world is not only ruining lifestyle or what was , but suffocates the people , business and markets , bloody fools the lot of them I reckon.
 
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