Finders Fees.. Specific Performance Alarms
- Thread starter Joshwaly
- Start date
G'day
One aspect of this rather dog-eared debate:
Every time (about every 12 weeks or so) that it appears on the forum, there is this rabid self-defence of amateurs by amateurs, accusing estate agents of making the rules to suit themselves (and just about printing their licenses themselves).
The amateurs almost always refer to this 'finding' or spotting' or whatever cute term is being used, in an 'any fool can do it' way. For example, it is almost always the person with no money, no experience, and no investments themselves, who think they can just 'find' wonderful investments which they can then quickly introduct to 'buyers', and make a fee for doing so.
Or the 'flippers' who, supposedly, are making zillions buying properties and 'quickly selling for a good profit'.
Wow! If it was all so easy, why isn't everybody doing it?
If any mug can be an agent, why isn't everybody doing it 'on the side'?
The answer to all this, and which just casually dissapears as the debate degenerates into a slanging match, is
IT'S ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE INTERESTS OF THE CONSUMER.
The Vendor as the Consumer
The Purchaser as the Consumer
The Landlord, the Tenant, in fact, everybody involved who is going to be putting their hard earned dollars on the line.
Agents have to be licensed so that the Department of Justice (Vic) or whatever department each state has which regulates business licensing can hold full records, can monitor, can act as a venue for complaints, or as an investigator and/or prosecutor of any complaints.
It is the State Government which determines the licensing criteria. Study, work experience, character and capacity all come into the equation.
Agents are impartial. They are not meant to be anybody's friend. They are working for the vendor, they are not the vendor's mate. They are not the buyer's advocate unless engaged as such. You don't have to like them.
I made an offer on a property today. Perhaps I had offended the sensibilities of the agent. She got up and left the room. I tried to keep a straight face. I once worked with an agent who used to throw himself off his chair shouting 'what!' at the first offer the buyer made. He always got good offers for his vendors. However, my agent today obviously was not trained to come back into the room. So I politely asked for the Contracts so I could put the offer in writing. I know how much the property is worth. I know how much I am prepared to pay. I also know the opportunity of a lifetime comes around every Tuesday.
Does she care if I like her? Nope. Does she care if the vendor likes her? Nope, but she cares if she does a good job for the vendor or not, because if she is going to build up a career with a reputation for good, honest service, then like her or not, her actions have to be above suspicion, transparent, open and honest.
It is easy to serve self interest. It is easy to think 'Well, I have a choice: work in the local takeaway shop or! I know! I'll be an estate agent! Any dill can be an agent, and I'm a bit of a dill, so I can be an agent, too!!'
So next time any of our unqualified forumites think 'Yay! How hard can it be!' please remember:
IT'S ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE INTERESTS OF THE CONSUMER.
Next time, you may be the consumer - of fish & chips (aren't you glad we have the best health regulations in the world?), perhaps filling your tank with petrol (aren't you glad we still have those silly old Weights & Measures Unions), perhaps buying a house (aren't you glad that agents have to be licensed, have the name of the license holder on display at their shop & their licenses available for inspection, and that we have the most transparent, Government guaranteed Title system in the world?), or when you got home the handle fell of the saucepan you just bought (aren't you glad we have Retail Trading Acts and Consumer Protection Acts?).
They say the price of freedom is eternal vigilence.
The price of protecting the interests of the consumer (read: all of us!) is that the government, on behalf of all of us, sets minimum standards of conduct which come into play as soon as we interact - particularly when money is involved - with any other person.
And I, for one, would not have it any other way.
Cheers
Kristine
By the way Joshwaly
Good luck with your studies and with your own investment plans for the future.
Confucious say: Journey of a thousand miles (1,600 kilometres) starts with the first step.
One aspect of this rather dog-eared debate:
Every time (about every 12 weeks or so) that it appears on the forum, there is this rabid self-defence of amateurs by amateurs, accusing estate agents of making the rules to suit themselves (and just about printing their licenses themselves).
The amateurs almost always refer to this 'finding' or spotting' or whatever cute term is being used, in an 'any fool can do it' way. For example, it is almost always the person with no money, no experience, and no investments themselves, who think they can just 'find' wonderful investments which they can then quickly introduct to 'buyers', and make a fee for doing so.
Or the 'flippers' who, supposedly, are making zillions buying properties and 'quickly selling for a good profit'.
Wow! If it was all so easy, why isn't everybody doing it?
If any mug can be an agent, why isn't everybody doing it 'on the side'?
The answer to all this, and which just casually dissapears as the debate degenerates into a slanging match, is
IT'S ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE INTERESTS OF THE CONSUMER.
The Vendor as the Consumer
The Purchaser as the Consumer
The Landlord, the Tenant, in fact, everybody involved who is going to be putting their hard earned dollars on the line.
Agents have to be licensed so that the Department of Justice (Vic) or whatever department each state has which regulates business licensing can hold full records, can monitor, can act as a venue for complaints, or as an investigator and/or prosecutor of any complaints.
It is the State Government which determines the licensing criteria. Study, work experience, character and capacity all come into the equation.
Agents are impartial. They are not meant to be anybody's friend. They are working for the vendor, they are not the vendor's mate. They are not the buyer's advocate unless engaged as such. You don't have to like them.
I made an offer on a property today. Perhaps I had offended the sensibilities of the agent. She got up and left the room. I tried to keep a straight face. I once worked with an agent who used to throw himself off his chair shouting 'what!' at the first offer the buyer made. He always got good offers for his vendors. However, my agent today obviously was not trained to come back into the room. So I politely asked for the Contracts so I could put the offer in writing. I know how much the property is worth. I know how much I am prepared to pay. I also know the opportunity of a lifetime comes around every Tuesday.
Does she care if I like her? Nope. Does she care if the vendor likes her? Nope, but she cares if she does a good job for the vendor or not, because if she is going to build up a career with a reputation for good, honest service, then like her or not, her actions have to be above suspicion, transparent, open and honest.
It is easy to serve self interest. It is easy to think 'Well, I have a choice: work in the local takeaway shop or! I know! I'll be an estate agent! Any dill can be an agent, and I'm a bit of a dill, so I can be an agent, too!!'
So next time any of our unqualified forumites think 'Yay! How hard can it be!' please remember:
IT'S ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE INTERESTS OF THE CONSUMER.
Next time, you may be the consumer - of fish & chips (aren't you glad we have the best health regulations in the world?), perhaps filling your tank with petrol (aren't you glad we still have those silly old Weights & Measures Unions), perhaps buying a house (aren't you glad that agents have to be licensed, have the name of the license holder on display at their shop & their licenses available for inspection, and that we have the most transparent, Government guaranteed Title system in the world?), or when you got home the handle fell of the saucepan you just bought (aren't you glad we have Retail Trading Acts and Consumer Protection Acts?).
They say the price of freedom is eternal vigilence.
The price of protecting the interests of the consumer (read: all of us!) is that the government, on behalf of all of us, sets minimum standards of conduct which come into play as soon as we interact - particularly when money is involved - with any other person.
And I, for one, would not have it any other way.
Cheers
Kristine
By the way Joshwaly
Good luck with your studies and with your own investment plans for the future.
Confucious say: Journey of a thousand miles (1,600 kilometres) starts with the first step.
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Well.. I have 2 kids, a full-time job, a little software business I want to build up.. a portfolio of properties I manage myself, and 3 hobbies I like to enjoy as well.. Some of us just dont have the time.. Just because he doesnt have any property it doesnt mean he doesnt have the time to spend 3-4hrs scanning the papers or driving around a suburb..
Just because someone is still an amateur by your description it doesnt mean they cant identify an opportunity and bring it to the attention of someone who's positioned to capitalise on it..
I couldnt give a rats arse if their licensed or not
We're not talking about someone who's hanging out a shingle and attempting to give advise and guidance to the Mum and Dad investors of the world..
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What a joke.. Most trades require an apprentice to spend _FOUR YEARS_ before we as a society deem they're capable of being trusted in their own business.. Plumbers, Carpenters, Electricians, Mechanics etc.. But 12 weeks is meant to give us the confidence that they have the skill and ethical basis upon which Mums and Dads are meant to trust them with their biggest asset.. Not just the repair on their Toilet.. In the meantime.. just show me the deal I'll make my own mind up, pathetic "license" or not.
In SA it's 3 years uni or through REISA 5 week sales training to let you work in sales for an agent and 7 months extra to be an agent. Same course is offered by both just one is faster than the other, is party time included in one?
Makes the 4 years apprentiship look a bit sick in the early 80's that I did, used to be 5 years and is now 3 years if you do TAFE for a year first.
bundy
Makes the 4 years apprentiship look a bit sick in the early 80's that I did, used to be 5 years
and is now 3 years if you do TAFE for a year first.bundy
Hi all
I have noticed that the spotters have mushroomed on the forums. Some people with very little experience offering good deals in their opinion for a fee. Is there any protection for the person accepting the advice or is it buyer beware.
Is a buyers agent the same as a spotter or finder. Is there a difference which allows the spotter or finder to function without a licence.
The reason i ask is that there are so many wanting a fee for finding properties. Are they all operating illegally?
regards
bonecrusher
I have noticed that the spotters have mushroomed on the forums. Some people with very little experience offering good deals in their opinion for a fee. Is there any protection for the person accepting the advice or is it buyer beware.
Is a buyers agent the same as a spotter or finder. Is there a difference which allows the spotter or finder to function without a licence.
The reason i ask is that there are so many wanting a fee for finding properties. Are they all operating illegally?
regards
bonecrusher
Well, if it takes 3 months hard study to become a real estate agent, then why not a 2 week licenced spotter course conducted by the state real estate industry associations? Why hasnt such a course been set up and licenced allocated. Clearly there is a need for such a service....but then again REA's as a group are so wonder and lovely why would any investor in their right mind want to pass up on the opportunity to work one-on-one with them? Why would anyone want to pay money to anyone to avoid them and track down a great deal?
My time is valuable, my patience is limited, finding deals takes time and lots of patiences, why cannot I pay someone to do a little of the legwork for me? The problem with many of the professional BA's is that they tend to try to shoe-horn you into what they want to buy for you, if you say I want to get some cashflow properties, they say "Cashflow is the wrong focus, capital gains is king, negative gearing is the way to go, Elwood in Melbourne has had 100% growth over the last year, buying a house there would be your best investment".
My time is valuable, my patience is limited, finding deals takes time and lots of patiences, why cannot I pay someone to do a little of the legwork for me? The problem with many of the professional BA's is that they tend to try to shoe-horn you into what they want to buy for you, if you say I want to get some cashflow properties, they say "Cashflow is the wrong focus, capital gains is king, negative gearing is the way to go, Elwood in Melbourne has had 100% growth over the last year, buying a house there would be your best investment".
HI Bonecrusher...
You said, "I have noticed that the spotters have mushroomed on the forums. Some people with very little experience offering good deals in their opinion for a fee. Is there any protection for the person accepting the advice or is it buyer beware."
Spotters? Legally, there is NO such thing as a spotter.
In reality, people will always pay "another" for information and a buying advantages.
Ross
Is a buyers agent the same as a spotter or finder. Is there a difference which allows the spotter or finder to function without a licence.
The reason i ask is that there are so many wanting a fee for finding properties. Are they all operating illegally?
regards
bonecrusher
You said, "I have noticed that the spotters have mushroomed on the forums. Some people with very little experience offering good deals in their opinion for a fee. Is there any protection for the person accepting the advice or is it buyer beware."
Spotters? Legally, there is NO such thing as a spotter.
In reality, people will always pay "another" for information and a buying advantages.
Ross
Is a buyers agent the same as a spotter or finder. Is there a difference which allows the spotter or finder to function without a licence.
The reason i ask is that there are so many wanting a fee for finding properties. Are they all operating illegally?
regards
bonecrusher
Hiya
Its always buyer beware.
AT the end of the day in my opinion, you should do your homework with your people before you buy, not after in a court.
Professional Indemnity Insurance is notoriously protective.
ta
rolf
Its always buyer beware.
AT the end of the day in my opinion, you should do your homework with your people before you buy, not after in a court.
Professional Indemnity Insurance is notoriously protective.
ta
rolf
This is an excert from the NSW Office of Fair Trading
This is an example by SIM of what I thought bird dogging was:
Thanks for your comments in advance
Dad
Is this the grey area between being a buyers advocate and a bird dog. If you are not negotiating, introducing or providing information other than the details that were obtained from a real estate agents office.
This is an example by SIM of what I thought bird dogging was:
Thanks for your comments in advance
Dad
Sim
Administrator
Just thought I'd mention that my example was nothing more than a theory - I have no idea how the courts would deal with such a situation if the question arose.
One of the keys would be the relationship with the people in question. Advertising your services as a "bird dog" would potentially get yourself into trouble. Being asked by a friend, relative, or associate to find some stuff for you might not.
One of the keys would be the relationship with the people in question. Advertising your services as a "bird dog" would potentially get yourself into trouble. Being asked by a friend, relative, or associate to find some stuff for you might not.
spotting
i have just completed the full REIQ principal licence in qld , this took approx 12 weeks part time doing it about 1 full day a week.
24 modules - the salesman licenece is only 5 modules from memory.
The "course" essentially is just copying stuff from the book and putting it on some paper then sending it in......
Luckily i have a fair amount of experience with property through my work and own investing .
To think that a real estate agent can do a course and actually advise anyone in relation to property investing is an absolute joke.
It takes at least 4 years study in most other professions
To say that you need to be a real estate agent to "find" houses for people is not legally correct.
I would advise people to seek legal advise from a qualified lawyer.
And i would suggest that all the agents stop providing their own legal advice as their licence and professional idenimity insurance does not cover this type of activity.
Josh - talk to a lawyer not the some of the dills on this website
i have just completed the full REIQ principal licence in qld , this took approx 12 weeks part time doing it about 1 full day a week.
24 modules - the salesman licenece is only 5 modules from memory.
The "course" essentially is just copying stuff from the book and putting it on some paper then sending it in......
Luckily i have a fair amount of experience with property through my work and own investing .
To think that a real estate agent can do a course and actually advise anyone in relation to property investing is an absolute joke.
It takes at least 4 years study in most other professions
To say that you need to be a real estate agent to "find" houses for people is not legally correct.
I would advise people to seek legal advise from a qualified lawyer.
And i would suggest that all the agents stop providing their own legal advice as their licence and professional idenimity insurance does not cover this type of activity.
Josh - talk to a lawyer not the some of the dills on this website
Re: spotting
Analyst,
Now that you're a qualified real estate agent - shouldn't we not trust anything YOU say
It's not just the real estate agents on this forum who are (rightly) advising that if you want to act as a property finder in any capacity - check your legal position first!
Oh and years of study are a poor guide to someone's expertise and integrity. Just look at the executives of companies such as HIH.
Cheers,
Aceyducey
Analyst,
Now that you're a qualified real estate agent - shouldn't we not trust anything YOU say
It's not just the real estate agents on this forum who are (rightly) advising that if you want to act as a property finder in any capacity - check your legal position first!
Oh and years of study are a poor guide to someone's expertise and integrity. Just look at the executives of companies such as HIH.
Cheers,
Aceyducey
so your a real estate agent
I still don't undertand that unless you are a qualified lawyer who specialises in commercial law that you can go on to a web site read some government legislation , and then start providing free advice to people seeking to gain some knowlege on a matter of starting a business.
Surely a better response would be to inform them that your advise is an opiniion and that they should seek independent legal advise.
I still don't undertand that unless you are a qualified lawyer who specialises in commercial law that you can go on to a web site read some government legislation , and then start providing free advice to people seeking to gain some knowlege on a matter of starting a business.
Surely a better response would be to inform them that your advise is an opiniion and that they should seek independent legal advise.
Sim
Administrator
Analyst - the first thing you should realise here is that everything on this board is nothing more than opinion.
If you engage an individual for their advice, you should perform your own due dilligence to assess whether their advice is sound and their credentials are as stated.
Anyone reading any information on the forum should not assume that the information is necessarily accurate, nor appropriate.
If you engage an individual for their advice, you should perform your own due dilligence to assess whether their advice is sound and their credentials are as stated.
Anyone reading any information on the forum should not assume that the information is necessarily accurate, nor appropriate.
Dills?
Hello Analyst...
Please explain if "spotting or similair" is legal...
(* If you are a lawyer... i'd love to hear it)
You also said, "Josh - talk to a lawyer not the some of the dills on this website."
Dills? Very strong words...
Now please give us the LEGAL stuff...
Analyst... do you really know what you are talking about ??????
Ross Sondergeld
Ross for Property
Hello Analyst...
Please explain if "spotting or similair" is legal...
(* If you are a lawyer... i'd love to hear it)
You also said, "Josh - talk to a lawyer not the some of the dills on this website."
Dills? Very strong words...
Now please give us the LEGAL stuff...
Analyst... do you really know what you are talking about ??????
Ross Sondergeld
Ross for Property
