Getting a Uni degree

[BayView]

I'm confused, are you saying free education (ie fully subsidised) is a right or a privilege? I think education should be free till the end of secondary school, beyond that it's user pays.

I think up to end of secondary should be free, then after that, a combo of part- subsidised Uni based on marks from secondary school, plus the option of user pays for all the rest.

I think if folks can smash high school due to hard work and sacrifice; reward them with some financial help into the next level.

The question is; how much financial assistance do we give them?

 

[HotRod]

Nothing.

It's compulsory to go to school.

After that it's up to the individual what they decide to do.

 

[Fifth]

I think up to end of secondary should be free, then after that, a combo of part- subsidised Uni based on marks from secondary school, plus the option of user pays for all the rest.

I think if folks can smash high school due to hard work and sacrifice; reward them with some financial help into the next level.

The question is; how much financial assistance do we give them?

Unless you included a means tested component, we'd be subsidising mostly kids from wealthier families due to the disproportionately high marks private school kids achieve, particularly those from the most elite private schools.

 

[Beanie Girl]

True, I've debated at length with people who consider tertiary education to be a 'human right' and as such it should be free to everyone. I think more along the lines of limited resources and user pays *waiting for the flames*

'And I won't disappoint you, Vulture!' Beanie Girl says cheerfully.
Here comes the first pyro.

in 25 years time, I guess you're going to be praying really hard that the brain surgeon known as Mr Fumble Fingers will be gentle with your gray matter.

You see, the real surgeon that would have operated in his place known as Mr Skilful Hands is now in America as fate would have it. 25 years ago, he was a bright student from a struggling family in Oz who could not afford the tertiary fees (user pays) for medical school. He was offered a scholarship by Harvard and he took it and he's been practicing in America ever since. Mr Skilful Hands would have been the one to operate on your brain had 0.01 cent from your tax been given to subsidise him but alas it was not to be so and karma would have Mr Fumble Fingers do the job, a second and third rate brain but had a wealthy family to back his medical studies.

So we have second and third rate brains being our politicians (you'd think it can't get any worse than now right? Wrong)

Third and fourth rate brains formulating our economic policy and charting the direction for the country, doing research, formulating social policy, formulating aged care policy, health care etc

How do you think these former kids who 'user pays' got drilled into them and 'the world don't owe you a living or an education' are going to feel about 60 and 70 year old farts like us who are 'users who don't pay' and who are no longer economically useful to the country.

Pass me the green needle please. It's better than living with contempt, vilification and humiliation.

An education makes us more socially civilised animals. Deny people an education, insist on 'user pays' for everything and the ugly uncivility and lack of compassion will reign supreme in society. You yourself will ask for the green needle before it gets administered to you (as it most definitely will).

 

[BayView]

Unless you included a means tested component, we'd be subsidising mostly kids from wealthier families due to the disproportionately high marks private school kids achieve, particularly those from the most elite private schools.

Could be a problem, yes.

A decent chunk of my high school friends went to Uni based on their marks...we were in a Public High School.

I think the student will excel no matter where they are as well, though..and reverse;

One of my childhood experiences was our family doctor's family - 3 boys, 2 girls...we hung out with them socially. His wife is a nurse.

The three boys went to Scotch College, the two girls went to Carey Grammar...all good kids and pretty intelligent.

None went to Uni - one became a cop, one a plumber, the oldest one became a treehugger living up in the Dandenongs making stained-glass stuff and smoking bongs, one daughter became a nurse, and the other a housewife.

 

[Hoffy]

'And I won't disappoint you, Vulture!' Beanie Girl says cheerfully.
Here comes the first pyro.

in 25 years time, I guess you're going to be praying really hard that the brain surgeon known as Mr Fumble Fingers will be gentle with your gray matter.

You see, the real surgeon that would have operated in his place known as Mr Skilful Hands is now in America as fate would have it. 25 years ago, he was a bright student from a struggling family in Oz who could not afford the tertiary fees (user pays) for medical school. He was offered a scholarship by Harvard and he took it and he's been practicing in America ever since. Mr Skilful Hands would have been the one to operate on your brain had 0.01 cent from your tax been given to subsidise him but alas it was not to be so and karma would have Mr Fumble Fingers do the job, a second and third rate brain but had a wealthy family to back his medical studies.

So we have second and third rate brains being our politicians (you'd think it can't get any worse than now right? Wrong)

Third and fourth rate brains formulating our economic policy and charting the direction for the country, doing research, formulating social policy, formulating aged care policy, health care etc

How do you think these former kids who 'user pays' got drilled into them and 'the world don't owe you a living or an education' are going to feel about 60 and 70 year old farts like us who are 'users who don't pay' and who are no longer economically useful to the country.

Pass me the green needle please. It's better than living with contempt, vilification and humiliation.

An education makes us more socially civilised animals. Deny people an education, insist on 'user pays' for everything and the ugly uncivility and lack of compassion will reign supreme in society. You yourself will ask for the green needle before it gets administered to you (as it most definitely will).

Why didn't he just take the heavily subsidised Australian course and cover some of the cost by taking a small loan relative to his future earning potential with very low maximum interest rates?

The users pays discussion has arisen in relation to people studying at tertiary level for pleasure/hobby. Surely you agree with that Beanie.

Love how you guys keep using Harvard as your US example BTW.

 

[Of The Vultures]

The question is; how much financial assistance do we give them?

Perhaps subsidise based on skills shortages?

...could not afford the tertiary fees (user pays) for medical school. He was offered a scholarship by Harvard...

Why do you assume the only scholarships must be from overseas institutions? Could this not have come from an Australian university?

The users pays discussion has arisen in relation to people studying at tertiary level for pleasure/hobby.

Exactly. Besides I'm not advocating only the wealthy should be afforded the opportunity to go. You'd have measures in place, academic achievement being one of them, to ensure quality of applicants. Subsidies/scholarships/low interest loans etc for those who have the grades but not the funds. I'll leave it there, this usually turns ugly.

 

[Beanie Girl]

Is there no value in having an educated population?

I still think it's worth doing for many other reasons

I'll leave it there, this usually turns ugly.

You will get no ugliness from me, Vulture. On the contrary, I respect you for what you said above and the anguished question you asked rhetorically, 'Is there no value in having an educated population?'

 

[Beanie Girl]

Why didn't he just take the heavily subsidised Australian course and cover some of the cost by taking a small loan relative to his future earning potential with very low maximum interest rates?

There will be no such thing as 'heavily subsidised' in a fully deregulated university environment just as there will be no such thing as a 'small loan'. Just as there's no such thing as 'very low' 'maximum' interest rate. That's an oxymoron.

The users pays discussion has arisen in relation to people studying at tertiary level for pleasure/hobby. Surely you agree with that Beanie.

I agree that the user pays discussion arose in relation to people studying tertiary subjects for 'pleasure/hobby'

But the user pays discussion has strayed somewhat from people studying tertiary subjects for 'pleasure' and wandered to 'user pays' for tertiary studies period.

I also don't really see anything wrong with people studying subjects they are passionate about. If they are passionate about their subject, be it history, political science, medicine or genetics, they will do well in it and excel in their field. Do what you love or find a job you love and you will never have to work a day in your life. And yes, I believe we still need people to do history. Lest we forget. Lest we forget.

 

[cimbom]

The users pays discussion has arisen in relation to people studying at tertiary level for pleasure/hobby. Surely you agree with that Beanie.

Love how you guys keep using Harvard as your US example BTW.

It was not the only example. If you go a bit further back, you'll see I quoted stats stating that the average debt in the US is 20k. That is lower than a 4 year degree in Australia under the current system - never mind what the future amount will rise to. Why on Earth would you take on a debt with interest to study in Australia instead of getting a subsidised education overseas? I certainly wouldn't recommend that to anyone, even if they had cash to spare.

Why do you care so much about people studying for pleasure? How about people that have kids "for pleasure"? Or people that eat excessively, drink heavily or do drugs "for pleasure"? Should they not get health care? How about retirees who live in million dollar homes "for pleasure"? Or mining companies that get subsidies "for pleasure"?

 

[alicudi]

Why do you care so much about people studying for pleasure? How about people that have kids "for pleasure"? Or people that eat excessively, drink heavily or do drugs "for pleasure"? Should they not get health care? How about retirees who live in million dollar homes "for pleasure"? Or mining companies that get subsidies "for pleasure"?

Hi

I have been following this thread with great interest as I am a mature age student currently studying at Deakin Uni and have gone through my life *** about by making money first and then studying later...not saying it is right but it worked in my situation as I never wanted to go to uni or do any further study when I completed Year 12 VCE.

But in relation to the quote above by "cimbom", I am a little confused by what you are getting at and what point you are trying to raise?

Could you please elaborate a little on the point you were trying to get across?

Warm regards,

alicudi

 

[Angel]

'And I won't disappoint you, Vulture!' Beanie Girl says cheerfully.
Here comes the first pyro.

in 25 years time, I guess you're going to be praying really hard that the brain surgeon known as Mr Fumble Fingers will be gentle with your gray matter.

You see, the real surgeon that would have operated in his place known as Mr Skilful Hands is now in America as fate would have it. 25 years ago, he was a bright student from a struggling family in Oz who could not afford the tertiary fees (user pays) for medical school. He was offered a scholarship by Harvard and he took it and he's been practicing in America ever since. Mr Skilful Hands would have been the one to operate on your brain had 0.01 cent from your tax been given to subsidise him but alas it was not to be so and karma would have Mr Fumble Fingers do the job, a second and third rate brain but had a wealthy family to back his medical studies.

So we have second and third rate brains being our politicians (you'd think it can't get any worse than now right? Wrong)

Third and fourth rate brains formulating our economic policy and charting the direction for the country, doing research, formulating social policy, formulating aged care policy, health care etc

How do you think these former kids who 'user pays' got drilled into them and 'the world don't owe you a living or an education' are going to feel about 60 and 70 year old farts like us who are 'users who don't pay' and who are no longer economically useful to the country.

Pass me the green needle please. It's better than living with contempt, vilification and humiliation.

An education makes us more socially civilised animals. Deny people an education, insist on 'user pays' for everything and the ugly uncivility and lack of compassion will reign supreme in society. You yourself will ask for the green needle before it gets administered to you (as it most definitely will).

No Beanie Girl, Mr Fumble Fingers will not be doing brain surgery because he will have flunked his exams and eventually been kicked out. Even with Daddy giving humongous donations to the University's RnD Funds, Mr Fumble Fingers might spend a lifetime trying to pass his exams. If he somehow does pass, what's to say that he will get registered with the Medical Board.
The end.

 

[Beanie Girl]

No Beanie Girl, Mr Fumble Fingers will not be doing brain surgery because he will have flunked his exams and eventually been kicked out. Even with Daddy giving humongous donations to the University's RnD Funds, Mr Fumble Fingers might spend a lifetime trying to pass his exams. If he somehow does pass, what's to say that he will get registered with the Medical Board.
The end.

You underestimate the value of what incredible amounts of money or power can do especially when all the Mr Skilled Hands have left the country for greener, cheaper and definitely more prestigious educational pastures. Hobson's Choice really to select Mr Fumble Fingers and ensure he gets all the 'help' he can get especially when our universities are hard pressed.

Or how about Bundaberg's own 'Doctor Death', Dr Jayant Patel?

Do I also have to remind you of a certain daughter who was the second only recipient of a scholarship that was never advertised?