Great depression history revisited

could it be because US and Japan has different characteristics.
Japan is a nation of savers: you reduce interest rates and the consumers get worried because their rate of savings declines (or return on savings if you like) and so they go into a hole.
Whats the level of private national savings in Japan compared to the US? If interest on private savings go down, then investment income goes down?
What is the population growth rate of Japan compared to the US?
What is the financial linkage of companies in Japan compared to the US,what is the mentality of Zaibatsu in Japan compared to the US.
Whats the level of private national savings in Japan compared to the US?
What are the bankrupcy laws of Japan compared to the US? Im not sure if its still true, but one of the reasons for Japan's long term stagnation is was the refusal to mark to market their investment assets (especially property).

Be very careful of comparing oranges with apples.
 
In the US consumer expediture as a % of GDP was unsustainable at 70%. When i was at Uni back in the early 90's it was 60% and even this was considered 'large'.
The credit boom and property boom were the catalysts that enabled consumer expenditure to expand to 70%.
We are now witnessing the sytem restabalise itself. It doesnt mean the world is comming to an end, in the short term it will probably over react but the economy will find its own feet it always does, the market just needs time to balance itself.

I remember Australia in the early 90's was a pretty dismal place to be, especially in Victoria. The hollowing out of its manufacturing base left countless people unemployed and with job skills that were no longer in demand. People were mass migrating to Queensland, our property market was being hit by not just rising unemployment but negative population growth.

But it recovered, the world didnt end for Victoria, and after the pain incurred, Victoria has had a pretty decent run for 15 odd years.

Things move in cycles, the key is not to be afraid, just increase your risk management strategies and use these uncertain times to acquire assets that are undervalued. It makes much more strategic sense to acquire assets in a market of fear, than when everyone else is bidding for those same assets (on the proviso that you can hold on to those assets and not be liquidated in the process).
 
I suggest members read the following topic in Somersoft:
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48554
Was the last boom a fluke, or something like that.
Now we look back on those times and think to ourselves, cheeze these guys were lucky to be acquiring property when they did, they were just fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, we all know 'anyone' could have made money during those times, it was so obvious.

Well thats the great part of hindsight, with hinsight it is always easy to see the obvious.

However think to yourselves:
Those initial investors who bought property in the early to mid 90's would have been told by their friends and the D&G'ers they are crazy, property prices have been going down for years, rents are stagnant, vacency ylds are high, Australia is never going to get out of its economic stagnation.

What about those investors that bought in regional towns with ylds of 10-15% plus: again the D&G'ers would have been saying they are crazy, there is a reason that ylds are 10-15%, its because they are not stable, mining had yet to take off, from memory i dont think soft commodities were very good either.

But those initial investors were prepared to take risks where others were scared to. They are the ones that have made the greatest returns. Slowly has they were proved right, more and more people invested in similar assets and the returns were gradually diminished (to the point that in 2007 investments in regional towns became the 'in thing' the must have investment because of the stronger for longer philosophy of the resource boom: the investment clock had come full circle)

Now dont get me wrong, i am not saying that now is the time to be going gung ho on residential property, all i am saying is that when ever there is fear, there are opportunties and the ability to make abnormally high profits which are not available under normal market conditions (and even less so under bullish conditions).
 
Induction is a great thing. I think what blows people out is that they underestimate volatility (in prices, interest rates and other variables) during a cycle and that things can take a lot longer in either direction than anyone had thought was possible. Also I think it is important to be aware of left field events that can wipe you out if you are levered. I certainly would not invest based on the premise that only what I can imagine can occur.

I guess the million dollar question : is this a normal cycle ? I think most people who have been around in the stockmarket would tell you what is happening is quite extraordinary and different to 1989. This is a bear market, and possibly a generational change in deleveraging and maybe very different to the last 20 years. Property investors seem to think this is the same as 1991 or 1980's or 1970's and every other cycle. Property will come back again after a shortish correction. It is an interesting disconnect between the 2 markets and it will be interesting to see who turns out to be correct.

For me, I like to think how things will revert to the mean, as they usually do.

And contrary to popular belief, I don't think the situation in the US and UK and europe is all that different to what the Japanese went through in the 90's. But that is just my view. The Japanese and Germans have the least bailouts and their economies are suffering the most. But they may well recover first. Particularly the Germans- their annualised Q4 GDP was -8.2% ! German Property RIETS maybe worth a look at in the next 2 years (low base, turnaround potential). The Japanese are saddled with government debt 160% GDP (the outer sustainable limit is estimated to be 250%, perhaps less with their ageing population) so they can't stimulate more. They maybe where the US will be in 5-10 years time. Japan I remember well as it is the market I've lost the most in the last 15 years, it is confounding, but it is still deflation.

Our government has room to move with government debt less than 20% GDP. But I guess a decade of failed stimulus and low commodity prices may change that. We also have household debt 150% which is much higher than either the US or Japan or almost any other country, even the UK.

Buy when people are fearful, and be fearful when other people are greedy is an important contrarian concept. I think it's also good to know when to stand aside when things really have changed and a train wreck is happening. For me, there is nowhere near enough fear and price correction to justify investing in property currently.

The best investment for me at the moment is paying off debt. Despite quite conservative gearing ratios going into this, I estimate it will take me 3-4 years to pay off all my business, residential and commercial debt. That's what I'll be doing and maybe buying into the stockmarket from here to 2000 (if it gets there) and maybe nibbling a bit on german stocks. The stockmarket is actually looking to be OK value especially compared to property currently, although it may get to even better value.

Interestingly, there are always other perspectives and for every seller there is a buyer. That's what makes a market and why they are so interesting.
 
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Japan is a nation of savers:.

I'd ba a saver too if I'd had 20 years of deflation and property and share markets were still significantly lower than they were 20 years ago.

It's not like saving is genetically bred into the average Japanese person.

I think we have a good few years of deflation ahead.

See ya's.
 
I'd ba a saver too if I'd had 20 years of deflation and property and share markets were still significantly lower than they were 20 years ago.

It's not like saving is genetically bred into the average Japanese person.

I think we have a good few years of deflation ahead.

See ya's.

you should tell the Japanese as well to be saver in deflation as seems they start spending more when their deflation started 20 years ago and they are not much of a saving country anymore (considering also the public debt).
Here is a chart of Korea saving rate in red and Japan saving rate in blue.
kor_jap_save.jpg
 
Japan's current account is still in surplus but has dropped over 90% in the past 12 mths :eek:. Does this mean that they will no longer be in a position to lend to the rest of the world? If the deflationary environment continues (must be a given) won't Japan be calling in loans? No one wants to be a borrower in that situation....Oh hold on, WE will be...
 
Japn 4th quarter data came out at -3.3% (slightly worse then market expected of 3.1%).
link:

Feb. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Japan’s economy shrank at an annual 12.7 percent pace last quarter, the most since the 1974 oil shock, as recessions in the U.S. and Europe triggered a record drop in exports.

Gross domestic product fell for a third straight quarter in the three months ended Dec. 31, the Cabinet Office said today in Tokyo. The median estimate of 26 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News was for an 11.6 percent contraction.

Exports plunged an unprecedented 13.9 percent from the third quarter as demand for Corolla cars and Bravia televisions collapsed amid a slump that the Group of Seven nations said will persist for most of 2009. Toyota Motor Corp., Sony Corp. and Hitachi Ltd. -- all of which forecast losses -- are firing thousands of workers, heightening the risk a decline in household spending will prolong the recession.

“The economy is in terrible shape and the scary part is that we’re likely to see a similar drop this quarter,” said Seiji Adachi, a senior economist at Deutsche Securities Inc. in Tokyo. “All we can do is wait for overseas demand to pick up.”

The Nikkei 225 Stock Average fell 0.2 percent at the lunch break in Tokyo, extending the year’s losses to 12 percent. The yen rose to 91.62 per dollar from 91.76 on speculation Japan will refrain from taking measures to weaken the currency. The yen’s 18 percent gain over the past year has compounded exporters’ woes by eroding the value of their overseas sales.

Worse Than U.S., Europe

The world’s second-largest economy shrank 3.3 percent from the third quarter, today’s report showed. That compared with the U.S.’s 1 percent contraction and the euro-zone’s 1.5 percent decline, which was the sharpest in at least 13 years.

“There’s no doubt that the economy is in its worst state in the postwar period,” Economic and Fiscal Policy Minister Kaoru Yosano said in Tokyo. “The Japanese economy, which is heavily dependent on exports of autos, electronics and capital goods, has been severely hit by the global slowdown.”

G-7 finance chiefs meeting in Rome last weekend vowed to tackle a “severe” economic downturn.

Japan has been in a recession since November 2007, according to a government panel that dates the economic cycle. The Sept. 15 bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. worsened a credit crisis that erased more than $14 trillion from global equity markets and paralyzed world trade.

Yosano said the government has no plans to compile additional stimulus measures before next fiscal year’s budget is passed. Parliamentary gridlock has blocked the passage of Prime Minister Taro Aso’s 10 trillion yen ($111 billion) package, helping his popularity slide ahead of elections due by September.

Unpopular Aso

Aso’s approval rating fell to 9.7 percent, the poorest showing since the Yoshiro Mori administration in 2001, according to a Nippon Television news survey.

The Bank of Japan, which in December cut its key interest rate to 0.1 percent, is trying to get credit flowing by purchasing shares and corporate debt from lenders. It has little means to address what analysts say is the economy’s central problem: a lack of overseas demand.

Net exports -- the difference between exports and imports -- accounted for 3 percentage points of the 3.3 percent quarterly drop in GDP.

Japan has become more dependent on sales abroad for growth over the past decade. Overseas shipments make up 16 percent of the economy today compared with about 10 percent in 1999.

“Japan produces high-end durable goods, which are very, very sensitive to credit conditions,” said Hiroshi Shiraishi, an economist at BNP Paribas in Tokyo. “People normally borrow to buy these things. In that sense, too, Japan was vulnerable.”

Spending Less

Domestic demand, which includes spending by households and companies, made up 0.3 percentage point of the contraction.

Capital investment fell 5.3 percent. Manufacturers cut production by a record 11.9 percent in the quarter, indicating they have little need to buy equipment as factories lay idle. Consumer spending, which accounts for more than half of the economy, dropped 0.4 percent, as exporters fired workers.

Panasonic Corp., Pioneer Corp., Nissan Motor Co. and NEC Corp. announced a combined 65,000 job cuts in the past month. The eliminations may have pushed the recession into a “new phase” in which consumers become more defensive and spend less, according to Martin Schulz, a senior economist at Fujitsu Research Institute in Tokyo.

Sentiment among households is close to the lowest level in at least 26 years. The jobless rate surged to 4.4 percent in December from 3.9 percent, the biggest jump in four decades.

“The best we can expect for this year is to see the collapse stop,” said Kyohei Morita, chief economist at Barclays Capital in Tokyo. For Japan to recover, “we’ll need the U.S. and Chinese economies to take off first.”

Without adjusting for inflation, Japan shrank 1.7 percent from the previous quarter, less than the 2.1 percent analysts estimated. The GDP deflator, a broad measure of price changes, rose 0.9 percent, the first increase in a decade.

To contact the reporter on this story: Jason Clenfield in Tokyo at [email protected]
Last Updated: February 15, 2009 21:11 EST
 
these are all great posts. keep it up guys.

i've said it before and i'll say it again - we are not weathering the 1:100 year storm here.

the REAL depression is yet to come - think 2025ish. not now - not by a long shot.

i call a huge bull market run in the next 10-15 years. unbelieveable. unprecedented. unforgiving. unrelenting.

THEN the crash that non-recourse speaks of.

draw your similarities between now and the crash of the EARLY 1900s.

The Panic of 1907, also known as the 1907 Bankers' Panic, was a financial crisis that occurred in the United States when the New York Stock Exchange fell close to 50 percent from its peak the previous year. Panic occurred during a time of economic recession, when there were numerous runs on banks and trust companies. The 1907 panic eventually spread throughout the nation when many state and local banks and businesses entered into bankruptcy. Primary causes of the run include a retraction of market liquidity by a number of New York City banks, loss of confidence among depositors, and the absence of a statutory lender of last resort.

The crisis occurred after the failure of an attempt in October 1907 to corner the market on stock of the United Copper Company. When this bid failed, banks that had lent money to the cornering scheme suffered runs that later spread to affiliated banks and trusts, leading a week later to the downfall of the Knickerbocker Trust Company—New York City's third-largest trust. The collapse of the Knickerbocker spread fear throughout the city's trusts as regional banks withdrew reserves from New York City banks. Panic extended across the nation as vast numbers of people withdrew deposits from their regional banks.

The panic may have deepened if not for the intervention of financier J. P. Morgan, who pledged large sums of his own money, and convinced other New York bankers to do the same, to shore up the banking system. At the time, the United States did not have a central bank to inject liquidity back into the market. By November the financial contagion had largely ended, yet a further crisis emerged when a large brokerage firm borrowed heavily using the stock of Tennessee Coal, Iron and Railroad Company (TC&I) as collateral. Collapse of TC&I's stock price was averted by an emergency takeover approved by anti-monopolist president Theodore Roosevelt. The following year, Senator Nelson W. Aldrich established and chaired a commission to investigate the crisis and propose future solutions, leading to the creation of the Federal Reserve System.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907

the similarities reign true - swap JP Morgan with Warren Buffet, China and ore with Knickerboker trust and copper.....etc etc.

and - enter the World Bank - and the Amero.
 
i also think people fail to note that the US Federal Reserve was in it's infancy and only had the Panic of 1907 to rely on for historical examples.

globalisation is a huge factor in not only hampering efforts to revive the economies, but also in helping to revive as well.
 
And whats the effect on the Nikkei today: down just 0.21%, doesnt sound like a shocker to me given the current prices.

You are right it is not a shocker and obviously was priced in the markets. Also the Yen was unchanged on the news. Even if we have to wait europe and US market opening (and that is tomorrow as today it is holiday in US) to see any real impact on markets.
 
technically? 1929 to 1933. reality? 1930 - 1945.

US sharemarket lost 89% from 1929 to 1933 and turned around in March 1933 when FDR started the 4 day bank holiday, breaking the downward deflation spiral.

Prices then took over 12 years to recover to 1929 level.

I regard this period as a long boom from a low 1933 base.

Should history repeats itself again, this is the type of period that sees great transfer of wealth :)
 
agreed Kenster.

however, the reality was that the second world war brought food rations, material rations, time rations ("blackouts for the war effort") incredibly tight lending criteria, men off to fight while the women laboured for 12 hour days making munitions.

this is hard economic times we're talking - and while those that had money to invest in the system could make a bundle, you must bear in mind that this was a period of time when your job was for life and you relied on a pension in your old age - there was only one bread winner.

it wasnt as easy having access to trading as it is today.

real estate was still out of reach for the majority.

there was no way out for more than just the unemployed.
 
... the reality was that the second world war brought food rations, material rations, time rations ("blackouts for the war effort") incredibly tight lending criteria, men off to fight while the women laboured for 12 hour days making munitions.

this is hard economic times we're talking...

Yes, BC, it was this 30's Depression that drove the post-WW1 Germans to the wall. They, in turn, supported the far right nationalists at the time, giving rise to the Nazis and Hitler.

Some views on the wind have predicted this century depression will be ended with a revolution :cool:
 
Wow, that is breathtaking, Japan’s fourth quarter GDP shrank by 3.3%, or an annual rate of -12.7%. If depression is defined as a 10% fall in GDP then they may get there in 2009. Despite their problems they are still the second biggest country in the world by GDP.

Last week the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, said he thought the world’s advanced economies are heading towards “depression”.

Perhaps it is not such a way out idea after all.
 
that's my point Kenster. the depression wasn;t just fiscally, it caused a lot of other chain reactions, not the least being the second world war.

honestly, who lets an artist with a perverse fascination for his sister start a right wing political party...?
 
I would think we do need a depression to get rid of all the bubbles. Then the world will be a better place to live. The generation xx, yy, zz... will have similar value on their lives, work and family. The problem such as the 13y dad and 15 y **** will not happen so often.

The world need a new order. Do freed trade, globlisation etc really benefit the developed nations?

I believe we have more problems to come in the developed world. Japan and UK may go down the history and never stand up again.

Re GDP, why we do not change the definition by adding the artifical debt -- such as Rudd given away to people? "economists" are just playing around with figures by moving up or down to denominater to arrive rubbish as they like. I wish ASIC allow short trading for bank shares and then those banks can lay off as many "economists" as possible.
 
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