Help - Tenant in Need

[kathryn d]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then .

Do you actually insure your IPs or just hope the tenant has insurance?

When would you claim on your insurance policy?

What happens if your tenant forgets to pay his premium?

I pay insurance for my own peace of mind. If I have to claim, I have to claim. Simple.

I'd be interested to know if a tenant's policy actually would cover $100K or let's make it really interesting... $700K to rebuild a house that is totally burnt down on his piddly little contents and liability cover?

Anybody know? (Anybody with knowledge of Australian cover for this type of thing?)

I have sent you a PM.
Our tenants are required to have $1 million

 

[wylie]

I have sent you a PM.
Our tenants are required to have $1 million

Thanks for the PM. But what if your tenants cancel their policy? I assume that in that case you would claim on your building insurance and try to get some of that from the tenant.

I don't like relying on anybody else to be paying for insurance that covers my backside .

I just googled and this is the first hit -

AAMI - tenant policy
Our payment for damage or loss to your landlord buildings caused:
maliciously by your tenant, or
during theft by your tenant,
will be up to the cost of repairing or rebuilding them:
with new materials,
to the same size and standard of your current buildings.

This fire was not "maliciously" caused by the tenant, so would not be covered by this first policy I looked at.

 

[Hneedshelp]

The landlord is not responsible for your loss.
The landlolrd did not place a heater in a richard-cranium position

The tenant is responsible for the landlord's loss and damages.
I would breach you immediately, sue for all costs and damages, blacklist you, hit your credit history,

If your landlord, or the landlord's insurance company, doesn't make your life hell, count yourself lucky.

this is a business, like a farm,
if the cattle cause problems, put them down.

Lucky Bob - I count myself Lucky that I woke up... and no.... not because the LL's property could have burnt down... because I nearly lost my life... you sound like a pig of a man...

 

[Hneedshelp]

Wow there are a lot of nasty comments throughout here.. but thank you to everyone who actually replied with advice for me. I have read all the posts and I will try to answer some of your questions;

I totally appreciate and understand the way insurance work and I have offered to pay the Landlord's excess fee (as I too feel that is fair).. If I was driving my friends car and had a car accident I would pay the excess too... What I dont understand with insurance companies these days is that the tenant isnt covered for ACCIDENTAL cover under the landlords policy... Why??
Should a person say "ok.. I threw the pillow on the heater in order to burn down the room" and then would they not be chased by an insurance company?? It all seems absurd...

If someone hires a car from a rent-a-car place the insurance on that car is extended to cover them (as the driver) and in most cases the excess will be higher. The car has insurance so the "driver" during "any rental period" is always covered. The person hiring the car isnt expected to have separate personal cover? They could cause a multi-car pile up?? they are still covered...
One would think this would be the same with rental properties... A tenant is technically "hiring" out the house and therefore the insurance should be extended to "hirer - aka renter" should be covered during "the rental period". I have spoken to many people within the industry in regards to this and most have agreed that insurance companies don't provide enough information for renters.

My signed Tenancy Agreements states:

"the Tenant acknowledges their possessions are not covered under the Landlords insurance" then there is a note underneath from the Real Estate Agency saying "Note: We strongly advise the tenant to adequately insure their possessions".

Being my first time renting I thought this would mean that is something were to happen (like it has) that:

* I can at least rest easy knowing that the Property Owner is covered
* My personal possessions are not covered

I also would assume that that I would be chased by an insurance company if it was malicious damage or gross negligence as I believe anyone should.

Tenants should be made more aware as to what they are exactly covered for as through I suppose "creative" wording ...perhaps even by insurance companies they are trapped... I have even read so many cases where the LL is unaware that the Tenant is chased after accidents such as these and are shocked/disgusted as well.

My initial enquiry wasnt really in regards to this part of my ordeal. I can see from reading some of the comments posted that there are some very nasty/negative people out there.... try putting yourself in the situation I was in just for one moment... you wake up with your bedroom around you on fire... you are unable to call for help, but you have the opportunity for one moment where you could easily run out of the house without a scratch (burn) and just let the place burn to the ground... but no you try to put the fire out... you are crawling with buckets of water as your feet are burnt and your unable to walk and yes its also quite hard to breathe too... You're in the trauma unit for a week as you need surgery to cut out and remove the melted plastic from your skin ans when you finally can come home your unable to do walk or so anything really for a month with nurse home care over to assist you every few days.... so have you imagined that's your situation??

ok... now while all this is happening to you, your PM is telling you every time you can actually get through to them "I cant get through to the landlord", they never return your calls (and by never I mean 2 weeks stints) but they have told you from day 3 that "Insurance is approved and works will be any day now"... for 2 months they tell you "yes yes ... sorry tradies had to reschedule" etc etc

and then.... you find out that for two months ... actually not one single thing had been done... that the insurance companies had not even been contacted... tradies had not been organized or contacted and when you approach the PM he denies all conversations in regards to it??? Where is the duty of care to the tenant there?? I think this is GROSS negligence... What happened to the Landlord is to maintain the property in good repair... ?

The bedroom is NOT habitable, once the assessors had been through I went myself to bunnings and bought everything recommended to me to clean the area... have you every tried to clean soot....?? it is still extremely dangerous and can cause severe damage to your respiratory system as the particles are so so so minute. professional cleaning is required - fire effected areas are supposed to be cleaned as soon as possible after a fire because of the possible health risks....

I tried to organize cleaning companies to come to the property once I was out of hospital but no one would go near it due to the assessors not having been through yet. So I put my trust in the PM and the LL and waited. I was told from friends within the industry that anything I do to the area could affect the Landlords Insurance claim and/or make it void. So not wanting to risk the LL's so called "claim" he had put in... I waited... and to find out that nothing had been done at all?? I dont actually know how another person can being comfortable puttting someone else in that position and still sleep at night.

Due to the lack of duty of care I wanted to claim compensation for loss of amenity of the Bedroom (for the time I was lied to) which in MY case I think is fair... for months I was still paying full rent and fully cooperating with the PM thinking that they were showing me the same consideration. Even an non urgent repair is given two weeks to be repaired???

Tenants should be provided with insurance details and what they are covered for upon each new tenancy or it should be made compulsory for them to have insurance (which would inform new renters on the risks they face as well)...

Thank you again to all the replies who actually tried to help, gave constructive criticism and who didnt just have a negative stab for no reason.

For the negative types on these forums put yourself in someone else's shoes for a moment... Accidents do happen.... Imagine if this happened to your daughter?? And just so you do know, It wasn’t like I got home from work, put on my pj's, grabbed the big dangerous electric heater put it right next to my bed, curled up in a ball and counted sheep til I dozed off..... I work shift work and after a 16 hour shift I got home in the early hours of the morning, i was freezing cold, so sat on the edge of my bed and turned on my heater to warm myself up... When I woke up to the fire I was still fully clothed in my work clothes, ON TOP of the sheets of my bed, I had accidentally and unintentionally fallen asleep. Are you telling me you have never gotten home from a long day at work, sat down on the couch and unintentionally passed out while holding the remote control??? what if you had done that and the remote control had fallen out of your hand and knocked over say.... a glass of water you had been drinking which spilt down the wall where a power point was causing a spark and and in turn a fire?? did you negligently place your glass of water to close to the power point?? Should you then loose everything, have your credit rating ruined, be black listed etc etc...

What has happened to humanity???

 

[Ideo]

You have my sympathies. Sounds like a bad situation.

Your offer to pay the excess is a good one.

Ignore those with no human emotions apart from greed and control. They will just bring you down at a difficult time.

 

[wylie]

You have my sympathies. Sounds like a bad situation.

Your offer to pay the excess is a good one.

Ignore those with no human emotions apart from greed and control. They will just bring you down at a difficult time.

^^^What he said.

Your landlord and your PM sound like right knobs. Try to get this all down in dot point form so that you have something to back you up.

The only time we ever claimed insurance was when a tenant went a bit troppo (on drugs as it turns out). He damaged some walls and a window seat. It was all covered by insurance and we didn't even ask for anything from the tenant. He had disappeared anyway. I do know that the insurer got the other tenant's details from us so we assume they were planning on hitting her up but we haven't heard any more. She was the long suffering girlfriend, and I felt very sorry for her.

Good luck... and we would be keen to hear how you get on.

 

[DEC]

For those who suggest the tenant needs to either pay for all the repair himself to avoid the landlord claiming on insurance, where does this end. What if the tenant left the bath running over and it caused $100K of damage to the place, and the unit underneath it too? Would you expect the tenant to pay it?

I would like to think so, the tenants negligence caused the damage, the tenant "should" pay.

If you rented a car and damaged it through your own negligence would you be expected to pay for it?
If you rented anything and damaged it through your own negligence would you be expected to pay?
Even if it wasn't your negligence and was a genuine accident, you are still expected to pay.

Why is a property any different?

 

[buster]

Would it be appropriate for the landlord to put in an insurance claim and let the insurance company determine whose fault it is?

Yes thats the way it was done in my situation. The LL has to make a claim if their insurance company dont want to pay they(insuranance co) will have to sue the tennant, if the tennant doesnt want to pay , it will have to go to court and the judge will decide and the loser may have to pay court costs and for both solicitors. If the claim is less than say 7- 10 k the insurance company may just pay it instead of paying the solicitor, but if it goes to court the loser may be the one to pay the winning solicitor fees. I dont recall paying any excess. And Bob what decent person gives a rats about paying a few hundred measly dollars excess in a situation like this, especially if they are such a big shot property investor, who in the same sentence says he is retired then says he is running a buisiness?

 

[wylie]

I would like to think so, the tenants negligence caused the damage, the tenant "should" pay.

If you rented a car and damaged it through your own negligence would you be expected to pay for it?
If you rented anything and damaged it through your own negligence would you be expected to pay?
Even if it wasn't your negligence and was a genuine accident, you are still expected to pay.

Why is a property any different?

I would think you would only be expected to pay for the excess, not the whole cost of the damage. That is what insurance is for.

 

[vaughan]

I have typed then deleted and not submitted SO MANY of my own posts in this thread it's unbelievable.

Using the "friend's car" example, what if the friend didn't have insurance -- instead of paying the excess should the driver pay nothing or the whole lot?

Back to the landlord -- what if their insurance doesn't cover the accidental damage, what should the tenant pay?

I ask this because the issue has got me concerned. Facts rather than opinion would be appreciated.

 

[wylie]

I have typed then deleted and not submitted SO MANY of my own posts in this thread it's unbelievable.

Using the "friend's car" example, what if the friend didn't have insurance -- instead of paying the excess should the driver pay nothing or the whole lot?

Back to the landlord -- what if their insurance doesn't cover the accidental damage, what should the tenant pay?

I ask this because the issue has got me concerned. Facts rather than opinion would be appreciated.

I suppose if I was to drive a friend's car I would assume it had insurance. If not, as long as it is registered there is compulsory TPI to cover the other party, isn't there?

Like most things, those who think about this stuff probably also are aware enough to actually HAVE insurance.

If you as a landlord haven't read your insurance and don't know if your property is covered for accidental damage, whose fault is that? I know what my houses are covered for, and whether I want to be covered for accidental damage is one thing that is asked of me each time I take out a policy.

If you are at all concerned, check your insurance policy or call your insurer.

I just know that if the fire happened in our IP, we would involve the insurer immediately. In this particular case, we would reduce the rent whilst the bedroom is uninhabitable, and probably would not ask for the excess (unless the tenant made things difficult, in which case we would possibly consider it).

If the damage had been caused through no fault or negligence of the tenant, we would not even consider asking him/her to pay the excess.

The only other time I recall knowing the details about insurance was when a tenant of my parents' IP broke the shower screen. My parents claimed on their insurance and I don't think they asked for the excess. It happened a second time and they chose that time to ask the tenants to pay to have it repaired as it was about the same cost as the excess.

 

[vaughan]

If you as a landlord haven't read your insurance and don't know if your property is covered for accidental damage, whose fault is that? I know what my houses are covered for, and whether I want to be covered for accidental damage is one thing that is asked of me each time I take out a policy.

So you're happy for the tenants to "accidentally" damage a property and you make a claim on your insurance?

What happens if, due to bad luck or whatever (ie not being personal on you) you cannot get accidental cover. Say the insurers no longer offer it, or too many claims have been made and you cannot get cover. What would you do then?

Tenant spills red wine on the carpet and stains it. Accidental damage claim? No, tenant is liable it would come out of bond. Heater tips over and burns carpet: same thing, tenant liable comes out of bond. Not enough bond: tenant pays. Insurance is for when the tenant cannot pay IMHO.

 

[wylie]

So you're happy for the tenants to "accidentally" damage a property and you make a claim on your insurance? Yes

What happens if, due to bad luck or whatever (ie not being personal on you) you cannot get accidental cover. Say the insurers no longer offer it, or too many claims have been made and you cannot get cover. What would you do then? If I cannot get accidental cover, I will look at my insurance cover again.

Tenant spills red wine on the carpet and stains it. Accidental damage claim? No, tenant is liable it would come out of bond. Heater tips over and burns carpet: same thing, tenant liable comes out of bond. Not enough bond: tenant pays. Insurance is for when the tenant cannot pay IMHO.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Why bother having insurance if you don't want to make a legitimate claim? The excess may be paid by the tenant... or not... depending on what happened to cause the damage.

In the case that our property was deliberately damaged by the tenant, we would have asked him to pay the excess. As it happened, he had skipped and we knew his girlfriend was being pursued by the insurer. We could have pursued her for the excess, but we didn't. Does that make us stupid?

I believe it makes us compassionate. That poor girl will be paying for her stupid boyfriend for years. We don't need to add to her problems.

 

[pully]

Lucky Bob - I count myself Lucky that I woke up... and no.... not because the LL's property could have burnt down... because I nearly lost my life... you sound like a pig of a man...

that sort of comment is unhelpful. it is indeed fortunate this incident did not have a more adverse outcome.

its sounds from what has been said, the incident has not been managed as well as it could have been.

we have insurance to cover events such as this to mitigate our losses and risks. who pays for what would be a matter for the insurance/s to determine.
its sounds as if in this case events have not been coordinated well.

it is a potentially complicated matter involving strata/landlord/tenant insurances, but it could have been better managed.

certainly a good example to make sure insurances are in place and that the policies are read and understood.

 

[vaughan]

we have insurance to cover events such as this to mitigate our losses and risks.

That's exactly it.

We (landlords) have insurance to cover OURSELVES for loss and risk. Not to cover the tenant.

 

[jaycee]

That's exactly it.

We (landlords) have insurance to cover OURSELVES for loss and risk. Not to cover the tenant.

Well get an insurance policy to cover that and then you can relax finally

sheee... I am again reminded of token funder's post from I think last year "if more people accepted they were becoming LANDLORDS not PRTOPERTY INVESTORS (Which makes me feely all warm & fuzzy insisde, I know right !?!?!), they would not be so surprised

If our tenant cased damage like th eOP, but then they packed u the car & took off, who gets stuck with the house ? The own er or the tenant who has jsut done a runner ?

So, from my point of view, I would be getting insruance just in case as it does seem I am the one with more to lose

I know, woe is me, it's not fair, the world is against propoetty invetors, the Gillardgovt is to blame an d all that other stuff that propoerty investors have to put up with more than the genral commmunity

Fair or not, what has that got to do with anything ?

Reality is what it is...

I just don't like landlord's chances getting $7k or sone amount like that out of a tenant for an accident which is covered by insurance

 

[kathryn d]

Fyi

I emailed a couple of insurance companies, pretending to be a tenant wanting liability insurance, as my 'sister' had accidentally burned her landlord's carpet,and he refused to put it thru his insurance, as he didn't want to lose his 'no claim discount'. At first I was told no, the landlord would need to do it. When I emailed back, and requested who I could contact so I could buy this 'peace of mind' insurance.I mentioned the RTA clearly states I am responsible for any damage that I, or my guest, may do.
Here is the second email I received. I have blacked out the phone number and insurance company...not sure if I am permitted to post that.





Hi Kathryn,

Your contents policy provides "Liability Cover" which allows for claims made against you for damage you may cause. If a landlord sends a letter of demand requesting compensation for damages, you can lodge a liability claim and the Legal dept would decide if the claim would be covered. All liability claims are treated on a case by case basis.

For further information as to the coverage of our policies, you can call ****** or download a copy of our policy from the xxxx web site.

Regards
XX XX

 

[wylie]

Sounds like a very wishy washy answer.

I'll continue to keep up my policies and make a claim if necessary. I'll let my tenants insure their contents... or not. But my building is covered by my policy.

 

[Token Funder]

I emailed a couple of insurance companies, pretending to be a tenant wanting liability insurance, as my 'sister' had accidentally burned her landlord's carpet,and he refused to put it thru his insurance, as he didn't want to lose his 'no claim discount'. At first I was told no, the landlord would need to do it. When I emailed back, and requested who I could contact so I could buy this 'peace of mind' insurance.I mentioned the RTA clearly states I am responsible for any damage that I, or my guest, may do.
Here is the second email I received. I have blacked out the phone number and insurance company...not sure if I am permitted to post that.





Hi Kathryn,

Your contents policy provides "Liability Cover" which allows for claims made against you for damage you may cause. If a landlord sends a letter of demand requesting compensation for damages, you can lodge a liability claim and the Legal dept would decide if the claim would be covered. All liability claims are treated on a case by case basis.

For further information as to the coverage of our policies, you can call ****** or download a copy of our policy from the xxxx web site.

Regards
XX XX

1. Download their policy
2. Find the liability section
3. Look for an exclusion excluding claims to property in the insured's "custody, control, possession" or similar.
4. Consider if a rental is likely to be considered "custody, control, possession" or whatever.
5. Have a guess at response of Legal Dept.

 

[jaycee]

Sounds like a very wishy washy answer.

I'll continue to keep up my policies and make a claim if necessary. I'll let my tenants insure their contents... or not. But my building is covered by my policy.

It still wouldn't save you insurance money would it ? We'd still want to insure our building and keep our landlord insurance for any other events that may occur.