here come the drums of a global slowdown..

are the signs there for a global slowdown ??

copper and other industrial metals, although volatile, are a good indicator..
they were the first to rally from 03 boom ..
and recently as USD has been falling they should be rising.. however, the bigger picture says there is a slowdown coming and the metals are falling..

what does this all mean .. lets see, Australia is heavily into resources, but the coming earning season should be packed with fireworks.. e.g.

2006/07: copper was 3.50/USD 1usd = 0.75 AUD (average)
2007/08: copper now 3.10 (actually 3.00 and falling) and 1usd = 0.88 AUD

for a producer this means: in 06/07 price in AUD was 4.67 , and now is 3.52
hence a drop in profits of 25% (assuming equal production)...

add to that increasing costs etc, and it looks even worse ..

they were the first to rally, and the text book says they should be, a perfect leading indicator to global upturn.. they are starting to fall , is this a leading
indicator to a global slowdown !!
 
china is also starting to bring on-line it's own production of raw materials, such as metals.

i know that in march next year it's about to start production with one of the largest steel mills in the world (150million tonnes/yr) - which will reduce it's demand on importing steel. this might also lead to a slowdown in the rest of the world.
 
Good point Trendsta.

One would assume sector to fall if that continues. Market will be looking for low cost producers, and more diversified plays to soften the blow.

Assuming you have a producer with a cost figure in the low $1 range - their profits will suffer, but there will still be just that - profits. Then if they have another metal in production elsewhere - all the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm by no means an expert in this area what so ever :) )
 
Good point Trendsta.

One would assume sector to fall if that continues. Market will be looking for low cost producers, and more diversified plays to soften the blow.

Assuming you have a producer with a cost figure in the low $1 range - their profits will suffer, but there will still be just that - profits. Then if they have another metal in production elsewhere - all the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm by no means an expert in this area what so ever :) )

Hi Steve,
Copper pretty much leads the charge up or down for other base metals (lead, zinc, aluminium, nickel etc) .. at times the prices diverge e.g. nickel and zinc late last year).. however in the main if u look at all base metals they rallied from 03/04 collectively .. and the trend in last copule of months has been down .. initially they were bought off even as stockpiles were building up in LME, as USD fell, and people sought hard commodities .. You would expect that trend to continue .. however more recently the prices started dropping and LME warehouse levels are going up .. so even a drop in USD cannot sustain their prices.. this means there is a future view that demand for commodities will slow.. (maybe its just speculators driving prices, i dunno).. it will take few months for the trend to establish ...

commodities being a raw material for production, are a very good indicator.. the prices are volatile as hedge funds etc speculate on supply and demand in a relatively small market .. however the trend is easy to see, the question is - IS the market forecasting a slowdown , or is it just speculators .. note if it was speculators it wold be a sharp drop, whereas a bear is a more sustained slowdown ..

given all this, what does it mean for australia..
lots..
firstly australian market is commodity heavy.. alot of money has flowed to OZ to the commodity sector ..

If this is in fact a sustained decline and a indicator of global slowdown, then that money will flow out of australia, which will unwid the massive carry-trade happening, and lower the AUD. Implications of a lower AUD are better profits for exporters, but higher costs for importers.. seeing as so many consumer goods etc are imported this will impact CPI in a big way, especially if all of this is sustained, and not just a short term trend..

Lizzie good point.. yes chinese have been closing many inefficient mines over last few years and forming a more efficient structure (govt taking a long term view, maybe aust govt can learn something here).. short term they experienced higher prices, but this will be a massive benefit to the chinese in future..
 
The topic title reminds me of the scene LOTR - Fellowship of the Ring when Merry carelessly pushed the skeleton into the well while they are inside Moria, and the drum of Orcs sounded.. The thought of inevitable recession is equally scary I think
 
ahh.. we posted the same article :D

hehehe .. :)

just a matter of time now ..
all other things being equal , unemployment figures in various zones are key ..

the slowdown has already started impacting corporate earnings.. question is when will corporations start cutting costs to sustain their margins?? one of the largest costs is employees.. US finance companies, construction etc have allready layed off huge numbers.

last 4 years, none of the resources have even looked at costs and have let them continue upwards.. they will soon start focusing on costs as profits decline .. cant wait for the earnings season..

when corporations start cutting headcounts that will really start filtering thru the economy..
 
http://business.smh.com.au/fuel-price-cap-drives-china-to-a-halt/20071121-1bzp.html

THE use of old-fashioned price controls to fight inflation is causing road chaos in some parts of China as speculators hoard fuel and refineries send their product overseas.

The oil price edged above $US99 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange yesterday but Chinese authorities continued to hold retail fuel prices well below the cost of production. Retail prices have risen only 10 per cent this year, but this masks rampant profiteering on the wholesale market.

In Guizhou, the largest energy exporting province in southern China, retailers had capped the price of diesel at 5.24 yuan a litre, or 79 Australian cents, a little more than half of the average Australian price.

State-owned petrol stations on the main freeway were rationing diesel or shutting their pumps altogether - either in protest at price controls or in expectation that prices would rise soon.

The few stations still selling diesel were causing traffic chaos, as truck drivers manoeuvred to advance their queue positions.

In Guangdong province, the world's manufacturing centre, private speculators have hoarded 10 million tonnes of fuel in expectation that the Government will be forced to relax or abandon price controls, according to yesterday's Yangcheng Evening News.

A source close to Sinopec, the giant state-owned refiner, provided a similar claim.

In Chongqing, one of China's biggest cities, the local government received more than 100 emergency calls over the weekend about trucks that had run out of petrol, reported the Shanghai Securities News.

And local editorials have been busy excoriating China's oil duopoly, Sinopec and PetroChina, for diverting fuel from domestic use to profitable markets overseas. Last month China imported about 30,000 tonnes of petrol and exported 180,000 tonnes, the editorials said.

Pan Lin, an attendant at a PetroChina station on Guizhou's Anshun freeway, said motorists were restricted to buying just 100 yuan of diesel, or less than 20 litres.

"If you put in 100 yuan, you'll make it to the next station so you can't run out," he explained. "And at the next station they'll give you enough to get to the one after that."

But Mr Pan did not tell the Herald that the pumps at the next two petrol stations were closed.

The station after that was open but clogged with more than 100 coal trucks and their angry, impatient drivers.


=======

this further highlights the problem of US printing more money ..
US print more money, oil and other prices go up .. China is partially pegged to USD and thus imports goods at a higher price .. which in turn causes inflation within china .. which sooner or later will translate to chinese workers demanding more pay etc, and thus increased costs of goods produced in china .. which feeds inflation in western nations as chinese goods get more expensive ..

here is an article speaking about the inflation in china etc .. titled
Globe flirts with inflationary spiral

http://business.smh.com.au/globe-flirts-with-inflationary-spiral/20071121-1bzk.html
 
I dont think I am the only one that cant help but think that this may be a good thing. I am sick of not being able to get anything done, cr@ppy service, no staff available, every being so busy all the time and and every bloke wandering around like a millionaire. Global circumstances and local politics will bring a lot of this crashing down to earth. have a good recession we have to have and see you in 10 years and we can make a buck again. I've ridden this boom pretty hard, good fun, a lot of stress, now I am set. phew.
 
and another one ..

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a6uLxnGM9nDA&refer=home

Nov. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Winnebago Industries Inc., Thor Industries Inc. and other U.S. recreational-vehicle makers will probably say shipments fell in 2007 for the first time in six years, a sign the U.S. economy may be headed for a recession.

For the past three decades, deliveries of motor homes and travel trailers have dropped before each decline in the U.S. economy, giving the $15 billion industry a reputation as a bellwether. As the U.S. housing slump worsens, gasoline prices rise and consumer confidence wanes, RV sales are forecast to slide this year and next.

Recreational vehicles ``are at the swing end of discretionary spending because no one needs an RV, and certainly no one needs a new RV,'' said Ron Muhlenkamp, whose Muhlenkamp & Co. fund manages about $1.8 billion including shares of Winnebago, the biggest motor-home maker, and Thor, the maker of Airstream trailers. Muhlenkamp started unloading shares in 2006.

A University of Michigan forecast for the RV industry in June predicted 2008 sales would rise 3.5 percent; a revised version of the forecast today swung to a 4.8 percent decline. The revised 2008 outlook was released during the industry's largest trade show, which began today in Louisville, Kentucky.

None of the five largest recreational-vehicle makers has posted a 2007 stock gain. Riverside, California-based Fleetwood Enterprises Inc. declined 33 percent and Coachmen Industries Inc. of Elkhart, Indiana, fell 52 percent. Coburg, Oregon-based Monaco Coach Corp. dropped 35 percent, while Winnebago declined 37 percent. Thor, which hasn't had an annual loss since it was formed in 1986, slid 23 percent.

`Picking and Choosing'

``People are picking and choosing more'' as interest rates rise and gasoline tops $3 a gallon, said Jim Frum, 66, a sales manager at Olathe Ford RV Center in Gardner, Kansas, who has been selling recreational vehicles since 1975. ``It seems like it takes out the family-type person who runs close on the budget.''

Travel trailers, which are typically towed by pickup trucks, range in price from $4,000 to $100,000, with motor homes costing $40,000 to $400,000, according to the Reston, Virginia- based Recreation Vehicle Industry Association.

RV-industry sales declines lasting two years or longer preceded recessions in the early 1980s, early 1990s and in 2001. Of 86 dealers attending the Louisville trade show, 66 said they will order fewer trailers and motor homes this year than in 2006, according to a November survey of dealers by Nashville, Tennessee-based BB&T Capital Markets.

``We remain fundamentally cautions about the space for `big-ticket' discretionary consumer purchases of this type,'' BB&T analyst John Diffendal wrote in a Nov. 12 report.

Recession Risk

Three days after Diffendal's report, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. economist Jan Hatzius wrote that the credit collapse that began in August is likely to force banks, brokerages and hedge funds to cut lending by $2 trillion, risking a ``substantial recession'' in the U.S.

Crude-oil futures reached a record $99.29 on Nov. 21, while the price of regular gasoline at U.S. pumps exceeded $3 a gallon this month for the first time since July, according to the American Automobile Association.

RV shipments fell 11.1 percent through Sept. 30. Shipments will probably end the year down 10 percent, said Mack Bryan, vice president of administration at the RV industry trade group, which is holding this week's Louisville show.

``This is an industry highly sensitive to consumer spending,'' said Bryan, who added that demand may return toward the second half of 2008.

The University of Michigan forecast of a decline through 2008 comes on the heels of the industry's best year in three decades. In 2006, RV shipments rose 1.6 percent to 390,500 trailers and motor homes, capping five straight years of growth. That streak broke a 20-month decline.

Winnebago's Sales

Winnebago led motor-home sales declines through the first nine months with a 7.1 percent drop, including a 20 percent plunge for September, according to Grand Rapids, Michigan-based Statistical Surveys Inc.

``I can tell you that we have seen this type of industry swing over the last the three decades,'' Winnebago Chief Executive Officer Bruce Hertzke said in an interview today from the Louisville show, where the company is unveiling more fuel- efficient RVs to try to regain sales. One new model can go as far as 22 miles on a gallon of fuel. That's almost triple the mileage of the largest models.

``We do anticipate things will be down'' next year, Hertzke said. ``We do expect the market will come back.''

Motor-home sales also fell in 2005 and 2006, while shipments of travel trailers rose enough to offset the decline. Now sales of trailers, more popular with lower-income buyers, are dropping as well.

Baby Boomers

Even as consumer sentiment and fuel prices damp RV sales, a wave of aging baby boomers may ride to the rescue. The industry is benefiting from the 11,000 people who turn 50 years old each day, the peak buying age for RV owners, Thor Chief Operating Officer Dicky Riegel said in an interview from New York.

``The industry is definitely not immune to macroeconomic factors, but we still have the demographic wind at our back,'' said Riegel, 41.

Thor will outperform the industry and still expects a 2008 fiscal-year sales gain after a decline in the 12 months ended July 31, Riegel said.

Analyst ratings on the industry are still mostly positive. Five analysts surveyed by Bloomberg in the past three months recommend buying Jackson Center, Ohio-based Thor, compared with one ``sell'' rating. Forest City, Iowa-based Winnebago has four ``buys'' and one ``sell.'' Share-price targets for Thor range as high as $69 -- more than double today's closing price of $34 in New York Stock Exchange composite trading.

BB&T's Diffendal rates Monaco and Thor a ``hold'' and has ``buy'' ratings on Winnebago and Fleetwood.

Dropping Sales

Frum, the Kansas RV dealer, said his main goal this week at the Louisville show is to find lighter, less-expensive models that will appeal to buyers mindful of fuel prices and interest rates. His dealership, which claims to be the largest in Kansas, has been trying to reduce inventory for the past two years to control costs, and it is evident sales are tapering, Frum said. He plans to cut inventory 25 percent this year.

It may not be clear until early 2008 whether the U.S. will fall into recession, Muhlenkamp said. In the meantime, declining U.S. consumer sentiment suggests motor-home sales may drop further. The Reuters/University of Michigan final sentiment index fell in November to its lowest since October 2005, following Hurricane Katrina.

``When people are boisterous, they have good years, and when they're cautious, sales are down,'' Muhlenkamp said of the RV makers. ``I wish I had started selling sooner.''

=================

although technically nothing, it does show how consumer spending IS being affected.. first to go all absolute luxuries..
 
and another one... this time chinese stock markets..

closing in on 20% loss this month ... doesnt mean much in isolation as chinese market is up some absurd amount (over 300%) in last year alone.. however, in context of worldwide things it does show that there are signs of a global slowdown..

while i say this dow has put on 500 points in 2 days, because abu dhabi govt invested 7 bill in citi bank and one of the fed governers has signalled more IR cuts .. oh wow a cause for celebration.. why not just reduce rates to 0% money for everyone .. oil dropped $3 on this news.. hmmm...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aD4i_thDXD1M&refer=asia
 
last 4 years, none of the resources have even looked at costs and have let them continue upwards.. they will soon start focusing on costs as profits decline .. cant wait for the earnings season..

hope the unions aren't back in control by then - or they could send more than a few companies to the wall.

i didn't know about the price capping of oil products in china, and find this course of action potentially very dangerous. i remember when the nz government had a wage freeze impliments around 25 years ago to try and cap inflation. all that happened was that when the freeze was eventually lifted, wages skyrocketed almost overnight - instead of over time - up to the level they would have been if the freeze hadn't been put on. caused a major hiccup in the economy, instead of a drawn out minor one.
 
hope the unions aren't back in control by then - or they could send more than a few companies to the wall.

i didn't know about the price capping of oil products in china, and find this course of action potentially very dangerous. i remember when the nz government had a wage freeze impliments around 25 years ago to try and cap inflation. all that happened was that when the freeze was eventually lifted, wages skyrocketed almost overnight - instead of over time - up to the level they would have been if the freeze hadn't been put on. caused a major hiccup in the economy, instead of a drawn out minor one.

hi liz,
yes a good point.. the change in IR laws may impact resources. an article in afr looked at the winners and losers from the labor victory. One of the losing industries was mining, due to changes in IR laws.. im not exactly sure what those laws are and what the changes are.. maybe someone can eductae me..

the rising costs in mining industry are apparent .. however they have previously been overshadowed by rising prices and demand. a rising aud and lower commodity prices will lead to resource downgrades.. next yr is def looking gloomy ... only if the polympics and US elections werent in 08/09.. another saving grace for resources in short term is all this hype about takeovers etc .. with credit levels rising even for safer corporate bonds, it will become more difficult for companies to takeover using cheap debt..
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601010&sid=aueKD5iti7_0&refer=news

Moody's May Cut Ratings on $105 Billion of SIVs as Values Sink

By Shannon D. Harrington

Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Moody's Investors Service is preparing the biggest credit rating cuts since subprime mortgages contaminated the bond market, foreshadowing losses for investments that pay Florida teachers and money market funds.

Moody's may lower ratings on $105 billion of debt sold by structured investment vehicles after the net asset values of 20 SIVs sponsored by banks including New York-based Citigroup Inc. and ING Groep NV declined to 55 percent from 71 percent a month ago, Moody's said in a statement Nov. 30. The assets were valued at 102 percent in June.

``The assets that SIVs hold are continuing to decline in value,'' said Ira Jersey, an interest-rate strategist in New York at Credit Suisse Group, Switzerland's second-biggest bank by assets. ``As they do that it's creating more problems for the holders.''

School districts, towns and cities across Florida were denied access to their money after the State Board of Administration halted withdrawals from the Local Government Investment Pool on Nov. 29 to stem a run on the fund, which had $2 billion in SIVs and other debt tainted by the subprime collapse, state records show.

Legg Mason Inc., based in Baltimore, said two money market funds run by its Western Asset Management Co. unit had almost 1 percent of their assets in an SIV sponsored by Amsterdam-based ING, the biggest Dutch financial-services company.

Super-SIV Fund

Downgrades would make it more difficult for SIVs, companies that use short-term debt to invest in higher-yielding assets, to obtain financing. Three of the funds defaulted in the past four months. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is working with Citigroup, New York-based JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Bank of America Corp. in Charlotte, North Carolina, to form an $80 billion fund to help bail them out.

Moody's cut the ratings $14 billion of SIV debt last week, mostly capital notes that rank below commercial paper and medium-term notes. The New York-based company also placed $105 billion on review for a downgrade and confirmed the rankings on $11 billion.

Citigroup SIVs with $64.9 billion of debt were reduced or put on review. Bank of Montreal's $19 billion SIV had its ratings cut or placed on review. Some of the evaluations will be completed within a week, Moody's said.

`Material Declines'

``In recent weeks, Moody's has observed material declines in market value across most asset classes in SIV portfolios,'' the ratings company said in the statement.

Values on Citigroup's six SIVs under scrutiny fell as low as 56 percent, Moody's said. Orion Finance Corp., managed by Eiger Capital Corp., has a net asset value of 54 percent, down from 61 percent on Sept. 5. Eiger is sponsored by ING.

SIVs had about $320 billion of assets as recently as October, according to the ratings companies. Investors are concerned that the funds will sell holdings at fire-sale prices if they are forced to liquidate, further roiling credit markets that seized up in July and August.

The net asset value represents the amount that would be left over for investors if a SIV was forced to sell holdings and repay debt. SIV assets on average are 38 percent financial institution debt, 16 percent asset-backed securities and 12 percent collateralized debt obligations, Moody's said.

``We need to see the purging process result in a cleaning up of the bad debt,'' said Scott MacDonald, head of research at Aladdin Capital Management LLC in Stamford, Connecticut, which has $21.5 billion in assets. ``This is a painful, but necessary healing process.''

Florida Rejection

The SIV debt Moody's placed on review includes the top- ranked notes held by money market funds and local government investment pools.

A new advisory panel of Florida school and local government officials said on Nov. 30 they won't accept a return of less than 100 percent of their investment from the Local Government Investment Pool. The agency that runs the fund had proposed surveying participants to see if they would accept as little as 90 cents on the dollar of their deposits in order to access their money this month.

The two money funds run by Legg Mason owned debt of Orion. Moody's last week cut Orion's top P1 commercial paper rating to ``Not Prime,'' and its AAA medium-term note program was slashed to Baa3, the lowest investment grade. Commercial paper is due in 270 days or less.

Citigroup, the largest U.S. bank by assets, provided $7.6 billion of emergency financing to its SIVs last month. London- based HSBC Holdings Plc said last week it will take on $45 billion of assets from the two SIVs it manages. SIVs set up by Dusseldorf-based lender IKB Deutsche Industriebank AG and London-based Cheyne Capital Management Ltd. defaulted in October.

================

So the highly rated pieces of paper are becoming re-rated (maybe to AA or A??), as they do, up goes the yield required by investors to hold the riskier paper ..

This impacts all the way down the chain .. say BHP wants to raise money (for arguments sake) to buy RIO, it may need to raise debt in London.. its debt mite be rated as A.. Now to convince buyers to accept the corporate paper rated as A they too will need to provide higher yield ..

And when banks and especially smaller finance mortage companies try borrow short term loans they face similar challenges and higher yields prices.

Looks like more pain to come and credit is becoming dearer ...
 
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...2EF-490B-9B62-5730F9B5BFA0&dist=SecMostMailed

U.S. Nov. PPI up 3.2% -- largest growth since 1973

"Ugh," said John Ryding, chief U.S. economist for Bear Stearns, in reaction to the producer price index results. "This is a horrible inflation report. Our reading is that both import prices and producer prices point to significant inflation problems ahead."
Wholesale energy prices rose 14.1% in November, beating the prior record growth of 13.4% in January 1990. Gasoline price growth also hit a record -- reaching 34.8% -- up from the prior record of 28.8% in April 1999.
"This is the long anticipated flow through from high oil prices into the more general economy," said Michael Lynch, president and director of global petroleum service with
Strategic Energy and Economic Research Inc. "I think we're going to see greater effects in the coming months. This is a black day for [Federal Reserve Chairman] Ben Bernanke."
Thursday's data could support concern, Lynch said, that the U.S. economy will enter a period of stagflation -- a combination of slow economic growth, high unemployment and rising prices.
Fed cuts in question
The sharp increase in producer prices will not come as a surprise to Federal Reserve officials, but will be ammunition to some who have wanted to move cautiously to lower interest rates out of concern that inflation might get out of control.
Stephen Gallagher, U.S. economist for Societe Generale, said today's data, which also includes a report of higher retail sales and lower initial jobless claims, justifies the Fed's reluctance on cutting rates. See retail report. See jobless claims report.
"So far we have seen no evidence of second round inflation effects stemming from soaring energy and food prices," he wrote. "But as global output gaps close and labor markets remain tight in the U.S., the risks of greater pass-through effects are on the rise."
Meanwhile, the core producer price index, which excludes food and energy costs, rose 0.4%. Economists had expected November's producer price index to grow 1.8% and for the core to grow 0.2%. In October, the PPI had grown 0.1%, while core prices had no growth.
The gain in the core rate "largely reflects a swing in light-vehicle prices," said Kenneth Beauchemin, U.S. economist with Global Insight.
He said the PPI report "underscores the violence of the latest energy price shock, and the need for the Fed to be vigilant for any resulting pass-through to core consumer prices as we move into 2008."
Producer prices are up 7.2% in the past year -- the largest growth since 7.5% in October 1981. Core prices are up 2.0% in the past year.
The inflation picture further back in the production pipeline was also record worthy.
Intermediate goods prices rose 3.7%, the largest growth since 4.5% in 1974. Intermediate energy-goods prices gained 13.3% -- a new record, and above the prior record of 10.1% in January 1990.
Core intermediate goods prices -- one of the Fed's favorite measures of underlying inflation -- rose 1.0%, the largest growth since 1.1% in May 2006.
Crude goods prices rose 8.7%, as crude energy material prices gained 17.0%.

===============

If Bernanke keeps lowering rates, subsequent rises will have to be much larger than 0.25% increases. With this kind of hogwash policy 10% rates in few years suddenly look possible..

Next qtr is going to be horrible.. this qtr isnt too bad as traditionally consumer spending etc are quite high.. many US stores also discounting heavily.. BUT sooner or later the producers will have to pass on higher costs to consumers OR risk massive earning downgrades (as a result of higher raw material costs).
 
Back
Top