Not disputing your opinions (yet), but do you have data/figures or industry experience to back them up? Oh, and please define exactly what you mean by "artist".
How should we get our music these days ?
- Thread starter blaster
- Start date
Not disputing your opinions (yet), but do you have data/figures or industry experience to back them up? Oh, and please define exactly what you mean by "artist".
What Peggle said. For 'performers' this could well be the truth but for bonafide artists I beg to differ. And I DO have the industry experience. The artists I know all make a living and and not being ripped off by major labels. As I mentioned in a previous post, I have experienced 'failure to pay' royalty issues with independent labels.
I have also experienced what it feels like financially when record sales drop down to 20% of what they were 10 years ago as a result of downloading so please don't tell me artists don't make an income from record sales. Good ones can and do (or at least they did). Bit harder when income from sales drops 80%.
I have also experienced what it feels like financially when record sales drop down to 20% of what they were 10 years ago as a result of downloading so please don't tell me artists don't make an income from record sales. Good ones can and do (or at least they did). Bit harder when income from sales drops 80%.
If only every artist did that
You've got some good stuff there, you should put a link to it in your sig, if you want some free publicity.Funny thing happened yesterday, found myself listening to a couple of senior police officers, discussing their preffered methods of downloading & burning movies to dvd, and copying original dvds, using software that they paid ~$30 for
I was just about to tell them about some free software which would do a better job and in less time, but the ethics of the situation had me a little confused
Maybe it was a trap!
The way I see it, shoe-shiners also *did* make a living from shining shoes. However times change and there's no point trying to fight the inevitable. Noone makes a living shining shoes anymore, and one day (soon), noone will make a living selling CDs.
If only every artist did that
Well, thanks
MikeF, it appears I've been misquoted due to a coding error... the above was not my text, but Rae's. Yes go out and perform live by all means, just don't rely on an outdated regime (record/tape/cd sales) to put food on your plate.
My main point was, there are hundreds of professions that have become obsolete over the centuries, so why should (recording) musicians magically be exempt from this phenomenon?
My main point was, there are hundreds of professions that have become obsolete over the centuries, so why should (recording) musicians magically be exempt from this phenomenon?
Thanks for all the info people .
So you guys mostly don't think CD's will be going anywhere quite yet by the sounds of it .
That's a good thing to me being very near computered out these days and the crap quality, or non existent more like it in Limewire, or those storage pieces of sh't - any I've used so far anyway .
Considering some of the systems I've had over the years in having a passion for instrumental styles in music I've been thinking, so this is what we're reduced to through the internet age eh, thank God torrents sound a bit better.
Although it meaning more computers, I think I'll go back to buying CD's if they're still going to be around for now .
Cheers
So you guys mostly don't think CD's will be going anywhere quite yet by the sounds of it .
That's a good thing to me being very near computered out these days and the crap quality, or non existent more like it in Limewire, or those storage pieces of sh't - any I've used so far anyway .
Considering some of the systems I've had over the years in having a passion for instrumental styles in music I've been thinking, so this is what we're reduced to through the internet age eh, thank God torrents sound a bit better.
Although it meaning more computers, I think I'll go back to buying CD's if they're still going to be around for now .
Cheers
They'll be around for decades, blaster. Even if your favourite albums stop selling in the stores, and you end up going down the mp3 route, there'll probably still be blank CDs for you to make your own recordings onto (from the mp3s).
Yes it would be great for the first year or so as you want your work to be recognised. You think they'd be just as happy in 5yrs time if their music was hugely popular and they still had to have a regular day job to live?
Don't know the details like you, but I can believe it. Yes the big music corp's make plenty of money off the music, but surely if the industry keeps being pirated at increasing rates, the artists are going to have to get lower pay cheques as well? Isn't that why they're reverting back to doing so much more tour work now than they were doing 15yrs back? I doube Bono, Madonna and all those artists that are vocal on the piracy issue are worried about Sony BMG's profits - they know sooner or later it's going to filter down to them and hurt their wallets.
The way I see it, shoe-shiners also *did* make a living from shining shoes. However times change and there's no point trying to fight the inevitable. Noone makes a living shining shoes anymore, and one day (soon), noone will make a living selling CDs.
Well, thanks
Selling CD's I agree with you - Sanity, BlockBuster, Virgin, EzyDVD etc are all struggling to turn a profit and are closing stores by the dozens. But selling music I wouldn't agree. If at some point in the future there is no money from selling music (by whatever medium of the day) then it will certainly have to change things.
I'm by no means that knowledgeable on the subject - but I can understand where the 'theft' view point comes from (and yes I have downloaded music in the past). One of my girls today was saying how they never go to or buy movies any more. Now I wasn't about to get into it, but people need to ask themselves what this path will lead to. If an increasing proportion of the population stop paying for movies/music in one form or another (Box office, CD's, DVD's etc), how exactly will the industry survive long term?
Fast forward 20yrs and everyone is burning the latest Avatar sequel so much that the worldwide box office only brings in $500M (as opposed to the $2B+ so far with the movie) - do you really believe the industry can afford to spend the $400M (or whatever) it cost to make that film? And before someone comes back with the retort 'well they'll just have to learn to make movies for $30M again' - the smaller movies will feel the same effect. Yes they have smaller costs, but they also gross a lot less with the viewing community.
If you make a business non-viable, consequences have to result. The studios are all trying to find viable alternatives to compensate for the lost revenue, and luckily enough it's not having too bad an effect yet (from memory world wide box office revenue is still increasing), but what happens when the trend picks up pace?
Just some food for thought.
Interesting debate...
I don't think the artists will ever stop producing their work and making it available to the masses, but the means by which they do this will change. I can fully comprehend the record companies going out of business in the same way I can conceive of Kodak going out of business when the world went digital unless both change their operating model. If the big record labels get behind free downloading and put it all out there in digital media, but develop some sort of search engine and online duke-box for example and make it a cheap subscriber type service then they might survive. Once billing for the use of digital content becomes seamless then these models will be more successful. At present every transaction needs to be closed out through some sort of online checkout. Imagine if it was all just pre-billed to your ISP and passed on in your monthly bill then recharged to the digital content provider. Its a bit like electronic tollroads. Take away the need to actually fork out cash and increase the uptake.
Unfortunately, the media providers are stuck in an outdated delivery model and can't see how to transition to the future digital delivery mechanism and protect profit. I think they see it as the end of their current cash cow business model so are ruthlessly fighting to hang onto that obsolete model for as long as possible. It won't work. In time the model will be obsolete and they will have either leveraged their existing brand equity to migrate to the new model or be another dead brand like Beta and even VHS now.
I download content, but I'm not depriving anyone of income. I never ever bought CDs, last one would have been over a decade ago. I download maybe 1 CD a year if that and only then because I need something in the car for when I drive out of the service range of the radio stations.
If, however, I could set-up an online dukebox and link it direct to my networked home theatre setup so I could play it through the house and do it all online at minimal (and virtually invisible) cost, then I'd be up for it. Would select "80's party mix" as my genre when I'm thowing a party and let the dukebox online service provider do the rest. I reckon $2 for 4hrs worth of continuous play sounds about right, oh and coupled with video clips would be good. I suppose I could just subscribe to foxtel and put the tellie on one of those many video hits type channels, but I don't pay for content I would hardly ever use so am sticking with free to air. I'm a pay-per-view kinda guy and I'd want that "pay" component to be less than the cost of a cup of coffee. I also like the idea of being able to specify my own mix of tracks if I'm feeling so inclined and foxtel doesn't do that...
Oh, and FWIW, I've seen Avatar in the cinemas twice now at $20 a pop. Could readily download it as it appears about 5 times in the top 10 torrents out there at the moment, but it just wouldn't be the same in front of my 42" plasma. Love the big theatre projected delivery mechanism and the sense of occassion that going to the movies still entails. Not all delivery methods are doomed, there's a reason its grossed so much despite how easy it is today to get it online at no cost.
Cheers,
Michael
I don't think the artists will ever stop producing their work and making it available to the masses, but the means by which they do this will change. I can fully comprehend the record companies going out of business in the same way I can conceive of Kodak going out of business when the world went digital unless both change their operating model. If the big record labels get behind free downloading and put it all out there in digital media, but develop some sort of search engine and online duke-box for example and make it a cheap subscriber type service then they might survive. Once billing for the use of digital content becomes seamless then these models will be more successful. At present every transaction needs to be closed out through some sort of online checkout. Imagine if it was all just pre-billed to your ISP and passed on in your monthly bill then recharged to the digital content provider. Its a bit like electronic tollroads. Take away the need to actually fork out cash and increase the uptake.
Unfortunately, the media providers are stuck in an outdated delivery model and can't see how to transition to the future digital delivery mechanism and protect profit. I think they see it as the end of their current cash cow business model so are ruthlessly fighting to hang onto that obsolete model for as long as possible. It won't work. In time the model will be obsolete and they will have either leveraged their existing brand equity to migrate to the new model or be another dead brand like Beta and even VHS now.
I download content, but I'm not depriving anyone of income. I never ever bought CDs, last one would have been over a decade ago. I download maybe 1 CD a year if that and only then because I need something in the car for when I drive out of the service range of the radio stations.
If, however, I could set-up an online dukebox and link it direct to my networked home theatre setup so I could play it through the house and do it all online at minimal (and virtually invisible) cost, then I'd be up for it. Would select "80's party mix" as my genre when I'm thowing a party and let the dukebox online service provider do the rest. I reckon $2 for 4hrs worth of continuous play sounds about right, oh and coupled with video clips would be good. I suppose I could just subscribe to foxtel and put the tellie on one of those many video hits type channels, but I don't pay for content I would hardly ever use so am sticking with free to air. I'm a pay-per-view kinda guy and I'd want that "pay" component to be less than the cost of a cup of coffee. I also like the idea of being able to specify my own mix of tracks if I'm feeling so inclined and foxtel doesn't do that...
Oh, and FWIW, I've seen Avatar in the cinemas twice now at $20 a pop. Could readily download it as it appears about 5 times in the top 10 torrents out there at the moment, but it just wouldn't be the same in front of my 42" plasma. Love the big theatre projected delivery mechanism and the sense of occassion that going to the movies still entails. Not all delivery methods are doomed, there's a reason its grossed so much despite how easy it is today to get it online at no cost.
Cheers,
Michael
Some very good thoughts Michael.
The biggest problem I see them having (referring more to movies now) is cost, time frames and distribution partners.
Cost: Let's face it - an increasing number of people don't want to pay for something when they can get it for free or next to nothing online or through other forms of piracy. Micro payments like you mention does seem like the most viable solution at the moment, however that leads to problems with the next two points.
Time Frames: People want to watch the latest movie they're interested in, now and in their own home. They don't want to wait 5 months for the movie/tv show to hit Aust. screens. They are starting to do more simaltaneous worldwide releases for movies, but tv shows still tend to chronically lag. They are also releasing titles to Dvd/download quicker than they did in years gone by, but obviously can't do it as quick as the pirates due to the last point...
Distribution Partners: It's not that simple to just rush through a legal download or DVD at the same time as a box office release (though some studios like Fox and Disney have been thinking about it for some projects). A new movie generally has time windows of distribution with many partners eg. Domestic Box Office > Intl. Box Office (both the biggest and generally longest exclusivity period depending on success of the material) > DVD (pushed up the hierachy since it's inception in part due to piracy and to profits) > Premium Cable > Basic Cable > Free To Air. Start messing with these time frames and you'll start to **** of your distribution partners and cut into their sales, and in the case of Box Office where the theatres split the ticket sales with the studio - you're talking substantial revenue losses.
One or more of these problems is effecting an increasing segment of the viewing public and can lead to decreased revenue until a viable solution is found which at this stage isn't micro payments. Yes micro payments may solve the studios issues in theory (though you'd still have to contend with my first point on price), but not really as it would cause all sorts of problems with the viability of the distribution partners businesses.
The biggest problem I see them having (referring more to movies now) is cost, time frames and distribution partners.
Cost: Let's face it - an increasing number of people don't want to pay for something when they can get it for free or next to nothing online or through other forms of piracy. Micro payments like you mention does seem like the most viable solution at the moment, however that leads to problems with the next two points.
Time Frames: People want to watch the latest movie they're interested in, now and in their own home. They don't want to wait 5 months for the movie/tv show to hit Aust. screens. They are starting to do more simaltaneous worldwide releases for movies, but tv shows still tend to chronically lag. They are also releasing titles to Dvd/download quicker than they did in years gone by, but obviously can't do it as quick as the pirates due to the last point...
Distribution Partners: It's not that simple to just rush through a legal download or DVD at the same time as a box office release (though some studios like Fox and Disney have been thinking about it for some projects). A new movie generally has time windows of distribution with many partners eg. Domestic Box Office > Intl. Box Office (both the biggest and generally longest exclusivity period depending on success of the material) > DVD (pushed up the hierachy since it's inception in part due to piracy and to profits) > Premium Cable > Basic Cable > Free To Air. Start messing with these time frames and you'll start to **** of your distribution partners and cut into their sales, and in the case of Box Office where the theatres split the ticket sales with the studio - you're talking substantial revenue losses.
One or more of these problems is effecting an increasing segment of the viewing public and can lead to decreased revenue until a viable solution is found which at this stage isn't micro payments. Yes micro payments may solve the studios issues in theory (though you'd still have to contend with my first point on price), but not really as it would cause all sorts of problems with the viability of the distribution partners businesses.
I just updated this with two of my favourites from both ends of the spectrum.
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