"How to spot a DOG, or an IP..."



From: Paul Hendriks

Calling all eagle eye's...

Thanks Michael & TW for your descriptions, my bifocals are coming into focus.

Could you both (+ others) elaborate a little more on the IP's that you prefer to buy (no areas etc).

And please describe your views on a DOG as apposed to a rough looking IP.

Looking forward to seeing the light!!!


PS:We don't ask for much, do we...
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Reply: 1
From: The Wife

Hiya Paul,

Nothing shy about you is there?? For a newbie you making lots of posts! brilliant!

I looked at your web site by the way, I love it, I think we will have to organise an IP fishing trip, Fishing is close to my heart.

In response to your question, one example that comes to mind of a dog, is a house, that no matter how much money you spend on it, it wont increase the rent.

If the house your looking at is broken down and ugly, but can be brought back to its former splendor with a little bit of hard work, and in its current state it rents for $100 pw,

and the house down the road, is approx the same house, and has ALREADY been brought back to its former splendor, and is achieving a rent of $105pw,

you would have to question wether or not it is worth the renovation,

maybe it would increase the cap gain? usually not if the rent doesnt move in line with it. But I have been proved wrong before,

I think largely its a matter of style, different styles of investing, and individual case scenarios, I always try to look for a comparable property to see into the future, and what I think I might be able to achieve.

Largely its an individual thing,

What if you find an old 'brickworks' that can be revamped into posh dwellings? theres not much to compare it with, you would have to do a bit of market research to see if the dwellings are really needed or would be a hit or not.

The individual style of investing brings to mind my FISHING post, ( see I told you I have a thing for fishing), I have re-posted it below for you, hope you get something out of it.

Somebody recently asked me "how do I avoid the potholes?" but one mans pot holes are another mans pothole of gold. ( except I guess for the really large potholes , like, dont buy houses with no roofs, but Im sure thats not what he meant)( actually thats a lie, DO buy houses with no roofs, but make sure that the no roof scenario is reflected in the buy price)

Check check and recheck, due diligence is the key, and continually ask yourself what is it you are trying to achieve,

its very easy to get caught up in the "beautiful building must renovate it return it to its former splendor" scenario, I should know, I've done it, been caught up in the architecture and not looked at the profit line.

Look forward to more conversation! TW

Topic: teach us to fish (7 of 14), Read 868 times
Conf: Property Investor Forum
From: The Wife
Date: Thursday, March 08, 2001 08:59 AM

Gee Michelle,

Your post has really frustrated me, I did say spread the word, yes. And I still believe in spreading the word.

But I cant tell you how many times people have asked me things like, teach me how to fish. And what they really want, is for me to guarantee that they will make money.

Thats basically it, they want a guarantee, now if what I tell them doesnt work for them, they will be upset, say they had a bad teacher.

Michelle, I would love to teach you how to fish, cause I am sure I can, I've caught quite a few fish in my day, I aint doin to bad, but I only catch the fish I like, If I hook something on the line i dont like, i let it go, sometimes its something I have never seen before, and I let it go. I only like MY kinds of fish.

What I would like from you Michelle, is a guarantee that you wont stuff up and blame me, that you wont put limits on me by saying, "no, i dont like your fish, i want you to show me how to be succesfull with my own fish"...I dont want you to say, "show me how to be succesfull MY way", I dont know your way....

And the thing is, and I have said it before, there is NO magic pill....bo special lure that will bring the fish rushing to your hook,

you throw your hook out there just like everybody else does.

The difference is, some people get tired of fishing, and they go home empty handed, some dont watch their line, and off it goes towed out to sea by a shark, some people are just plain silly and dont even bother baiting their hook.

Its the fisherperson who can stand there, with baited hook, who keeps recasting, who has the determination to stay on the shoreline till they catch a fish, who keeps watching the water , the tides, the flocks of birds overhead, the person who is really trying to read the signs of where the fish are...that is the succesfull fisherperson, they will eventually catch a fish, and they will eventually get very good at it.

And then whilst standing there trying to figure out why your not getting a bite, you watch the sun go down, and everyone else is leaving the beach, but look around you, there is the rest of us die hards, some of us reeling in fish as fast as can be, drinking beer, having a natter to our friends also fishing, then you have found your likeminded friends.

Approach your likeminded friends and ask them, hey, how did you catch that big 14 pound juicy white fish? And how did you sell it so quickly, for so much?

Well the person you asked isnt going to reel their line in to tell you about it, they are going to keep on fishing, and yap yap yap, tell you about it, and they will keep on fishing, and they will be laughing how they did it, and gesture wildly about the size of the fish, the fight it put up, how great it was to sell it.

Its now up to you apprentice Michelle fisherperson, are you REALLY looking at what they are telling you? listen carefully, look where they are pointing to in the ocean, look back up the beach to the place that they are pointing to that bought their fish, this succesfull fisherperson is opening up their mouth, and telling you everything you need to know.

Are they going to put their rod down and come over and cast yours out for you? no i dont think so, but its up to you to listen to them, to watch them, to try to mimmic them, and then actully go back to your rod, pick it up, bait it the way they told you, and throw your line, give it a go, you are now wiser, when you cast, your casting with greater knowledge.

So what about the fisherperson who isnt fishing anymore, can they come stand by you and show you how to do it? No, they are tucked up in bed, they dont have the desire or need to be on the beach's anymore. You will have to learn from those still on the beach, and learn before they dont need to be there anymore.

The thing is,

its the doing,

you can talk about it all you like, but you have to actually do it,

if you dont know where to start, your going to have to go sit quietly, and watch the expert, watch what they do, how they do it.

You may have to try different parts of the beach, you may not like what some people are pulling in, or you may not like the way they kill thier fish, some people can be so inhumane, but watch and make your choice, that is how you will define your own style.

~Life is a daring adventure, or nothing at all~
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Reply: 1.1
From: Michael Croft

Hi Paul,

I suppose the simplistic answer is only three words long; properties with potential.

It is the potential to add value that is the key:

- if you buy below market you can add value with better marketing and flip, on sell, new valuation etc.
- you can add value by renovating (I've used $400 worth of paint to add $20,000)
- you can add value by adding on or altering, pergolas, decks, carports, windows/sliding doors, add a wall, remove a wall etc.
- spot development potential such as the possibility to add another dwelling subdivide etc. Just getting the plans through council can add $40,000 to the value
- the potential to divide a larger house into units and increase the rental return
- the potential to offer vendor finance aka wraps
- the potential for vendor finance on purchase, this enables you control more property without it affecting your serviceability as far as financial institutions are concerned (may add value to you not the property).
- buying off the plan has the potential to allow time and price growth to add value (this is more of a risk as you don't control the economy and final price of the property - only the purchase price)
- re zoning potential eg. from low to medium density adds value
- buying a block of flats in one line and strata titling adds value
- creative combinations of the above are really good at adding value

The above is by no means a comprehensive list and some of them require specialist/specific knowledge.

The buy and hold method as advocated by Jan and this site works well given time. You can also greatly assist/accelerate your wealth creation by adding value at the front end.

To paraphrase JFK - most people see things as they are and ask why?, I see things as they could be and ask why not?

The only thing that will help you spot a dog is knowing your target market and due diligence.

regards, Michael Croft
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Reply: 1.2
From: Paul Hendriks

Thanks TW,

Can't be to shy in this world TW, (If you don't ask, you don't get) I don't imagine any of you experienced investors are very shy...

I am certainly not after any guarantees, nor do I want anybody to show me exact houses to buy etc, merely picking all of your brains for info so as to save costly mistakes in the future, & to fast track my IP selection strategy.

I definitely understand the "must do it yourself" mentality, as I preach the very same things to my Flyfishing clientele. The only way to really learn is to just do it for yourself.

However, it certainly helps getting some guidance & questions answered before jumping in, because losing a fish is definitely cheaper than selecting a DOG property.

Thanks for your reply TW, that helps clarifies my thinking, along with other responses under the thread Buy of a lifetime every week...

Now I just have to work out my own pricing guide to IP's (100k - 200k, to 250k or 300k) my minimum %yield return (possibly 7%), plus my buying preference below market (probably 10%)plus a potential of adding on at least 10% value by spending 1 - 2% on improvements, & thereby increasing the rent by around 8 - 10%

Sound okay Michael? I hope so.

I'll get off now & let others chat.


PS:Selecting IP's seems to be like selecting a Fly. One works really well, whilst many others are often ignored... Find which one works & you'll have a lot of fun.
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Reply: 1.2.1
From: The Wife

Ohhh, go Paul!! woooo wooo woooo!

~Life is a daring adventure, or nothing at all~
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