How uselessly pathetic was that budget?

[Belbo]

I thought that was obvious.....

Alternative: stop heckling like parliamentarians and start commenting on the issues and decisions in a rational and educated manner.

Talk about the pros & cons of the budget not of Liberal vs Labor.

Example: "Around $5 billion cut from Defence, including deferral of the delivery of the first Joint Strike Fighter aircraft and scrapping of plans to equip the Army with new self-propelled artillery"

See, that wasn't so hard was it.....

Deferral of the Joint Strike Fighter? The damn thing can hardly fly, let alone ever fight!

It's very possibly the biggest platform development disaster in military history.

Fundamentally misconceived from the outset, it has almost certainly deferred itself from ever being deployed into perpetuity.

'Deferring' it was no budget-balancing measure: Australia would need be out of its tiny freakin' mind to ever consider proceeding with it.

The Jet that Ate the Pentagon

 

[Indifference]

Deferral of the Joint Strike Fighter? The damn thing can hardly fly, let alone ever fight!

It's very possibly the biggest platform development disaster in military history.

Fundamentally misconceived from the outset, it has almost certainly deferred itself from ever being deployed into perpetuity.

'Deferring' it was no budget-balancing measure: Australia would need be out of its tiny freakin' mind to ever consider proceeding with it.

The Jet that Ate the Pentagon

Selectively quoting.... Nice way to miss the point & redirect.

Whilst I agree the JSF is plagued with major issues, if the government was concerned about it, they would't defer it and spend the difference now would they?

How on earth you can perceive it as anything but a budget balancing measure is absurd. Rationale: no government commentary that JSF is being reviewed, just deferred to save $. No mitigation given to fill capability gap. No allowance made to extend life of type of current aircraft, which can be very costly. The $ saved are not being reinvested in Defence to address White Paper requirements or commentary to explain a strategic shift in Defence obligations. The savings equal the cash splurge.....which equals balancing the budget.

 

[Belbo]

Selectively quoting.... Nice way to miss the point & redirect.

Whilst I agree the JSF is plagued with major issues, if the government was concerned about it, they would't defer it and spend the difference now would they?

How on earth you can perceive it as anything but a budget balancing measure is absurd. Rationale: no government commentary that JSF is being reviewed, just deferred to save $. No mitigation given to fill capability gap. No allowance made to extend life of type of current aircraft, which can be very costly. The $ saved are not being reinvested in Defence to address White Paper requirements or commentary to explain a strategic shift in Defence obligations. The savings equal the cash splurge.....which equals balancing the budget.

Fair points. (I just thought at first take that you were promoting the JSF for some crazy reason.) Yes, the cuts to defence are contestable and cannot be coherently strategy-justified in the absence of the forthcoming defence whitepaper. That said, I can accept the cuts as a temporary delay if they help bring defence spending waste under control in the short term and facilitate a healthier defence budget in the longer term. (But I don't think too many property investors are very interested in strategic studies so I tend to shut up about it myself.)

 

[Aaron Sice]

Is it just a Liberal, right wing, sense of entitlement thing?

no, it was sarcasm.....

 

[Aaron Sice]

Selectively quoting.... Nice way to miss the point & redirect.

welcome to the club!

 

[lizzie]

All that money still flooded into the economy at just the right moment to stop the GFC throwing Australia into recession!

Yes - it could have been spent much better ... but the point it that it was spent on non-ongoing projects, instead of infrastructure or projects that would flow onto an improved economy long after the money was gone.

And if they had value for money, spent over a longer period of time (because they'd have more money to spend), it would have been even better for the economy.

 

[buzzlightyear]

The concept was great. It was designed to stimulate the economy ASAP, before recession could set in. You know, the Keynesian 'spend your way out of trouble' philosophy'.

The execution of the concept left a bit to be desired. Maybe it was rushed due to the need to do something before the GFC fallout hit Australia. The greed of private operators was the problem. And they werent mnagaed or monitored closely enough.

With the lowering of interest rates, the bank guarantees, the $ handouts, it did do what it was supposed to do. And did it well.

If it was a Liberal govt. in power at the time i think we be in serious recession right now and then you guys have something to complain about.

Evan's point about the stimulus package intent and actual effect is generally missed, or glossed over in the context of politcal and economic debate in 2012. In 2008, the advice was we had an impending economic armageddon, and we needed overwhelming force to respond. Do we not forget the 4% drop in the cash rate from Sep 08 to April 09.

I do however disagree with the comment thatt he Libs would have seen us go into recession. They would have spent to avoid recession. It would have destroyed any claim by the LNP about their economic stewardship if there was a recession on their watch. The same applies to any government.

 

[Belbo]

Yes - it could have been spent much better ... but the point it that it was spent on non-ongoing projects, instead of infrastructure or projects that would flow onto an improved economy long after the money was gone.

And if they had value for money, spent over a longer period of time (because they'd have more money to spend), it would have been even better for the economy.

Yes, Lizzie. Equally though, education is social infrastructure that retains its value forever, while heavy capital infrastructure (roads, rail, ports, etc) can only be done by a few specialist companies and so would have taken too long for the spending to flow through. But I know you don't want to really listen to anything that could shake your faith in a 'good' Coalition government arising shortly from the tomb of this 'bad' Labor one. I understand how it helps resist fear. I just don't buy it myself.

 

[Belbo]

Evan's point about the stimulus package intent and actual effect is generally missed, or glossed over in the context of politcal and economic debate in 2012. In 2008, the advice was we had an impending economic armageddon, and we needed overwhelming force to respond. Do we not forget the 4% drop in the cash rate from Sep 08 to April 09.

I do however disagree with the comment thatt he Libs would have seen us go into recession. They would have spent to avoid recession. It would have destroyed any claim by the LNP about their economic stewardship if there was a recession on their watch. The same applies to any government.

As I recall it, at the time the Coalition was utterly lampooning Rudd for stimulus spending and saying if anything was needed it was tax cuts in the future. The whole point being, of course, that the Coalition completely underestimated the threat of recession but nonetheless seized the opportunity to sell itself to the electorate with the offer of more Howard-style irresponsible tax cuts. At least, that's what I remember.

 

[evand]

The govt copped it from day 1 from the Libs for the stimulus. Yes, they were advocating tax cuts.

That would have landed us in recession and who knows where we would be now.

As I recall it, at the time the Coalition was utterly lampooning Rudd for stimulus spending and saying if anything was needed it was tax cuts in the future. The whole point being, of course, that the Coalition completely underestimated the threat of recession but nonetheless seized the opportunity to sell itself to the electorate with the offer of more Howard-style irresponsible tax cuts. At least, that's what I remember.

 

[buzzlightyear]

As I recall it, at the time the Coalition was utterly lampooning Rudd for stimulus spending and saying if anything was needed it was tax cuts in the future. The whole point being, of course, that the Coalition completely underestimated the threat of recession but nonetheless seized the opportunity to sell itself to the electorate with the offer of more Howard-style irresponsible tax cuts. At least, that's what I remember.

I know thats what they said. I just don't believe they would have followed the same policy line in government.

 

[Belbo]

I know thats what they said. I just don't believe they would have followed the same policy line in government.

Glad to hear you don't believe a damn word they say either!

 

[lizzie]

Yes, Lizzie. Equally though, education is social infrastructure that retains its value forever,

Hmmm - don't see how overly expensive, new canteens, school libraries in school that then close down, a massive roller door on the end of the school hall (yep, that was at my daughter's school) and many many other wasted projects improve education.

I am all for education - but it needs to be spent in areas that actually benefit the learning process.

By-the-bye I am not a feverant Liberal fan. In fact I didn't vote Liberal until the last state election. I just think Labor's policies are terrible - including verbally bringing forward the Disability Scheme, without supplying enough money to fund it.

p.s. Joe Hockey on Press Club today. Never seen him talk at length or answer questions before. Was mildly impressed. He did a good job, refused to be drawn into petty pointing and came across as an honest politician.

 

[Belbo]

Hmmm - don't see how overly expensive, new canteens, school libraries in school that then close down, a massive roller door on the end of the school hall (yep, that was at my daughter's school) and many many other wasted projects improve education.

I am all for education - but it needs to be spent in areas that actually benefit the learning process.

By-the-bye I am not a feverant Liberal fan. In fact I didn't vote Liberal until the last state election. I just think Labor's policies are terrible - including verbally bringing forward the Disability Scheme, without supplying enough money to fund it.

p.s. Joe Hockey on Press Club today. Never seen him talk at length or answer questions before. Was mildly impressed. He did a good job, refused to be drawn into petty pointing and came across as an honest politician.

Yes, I recall your mentioning your voting history previously, so I know you're not a rusty bolt. You are not wrong to hope for a great deal better from a new government either. I'm appalled by this government myself. We just have different expectations as to whether Abbott & Co can do better: I do certainly hope you prove correct, because their time to shine's coming.

I missed the Press Club today, but saw Joe on the 7.30 Report on budget night or the night after. He's obviously a genuinely nice bloke, but boy is he a shocker of a politician. He's just not strong enough on economic theory and too weak with the figures, so tries to bluster through too often and too obviously. I reckon he's in the wrong profession: He'd make a great TV presenter (like Switzer or Richo).

PS. Great interview. Thanks for sharing your own tough story so openly.

 

[Macca]

Wow! What is this? A whinge fest? Can someone say something positive for once please?

You may not have noticed but Ideo asked Dazz what he would have done to stimulate the economy. I thought it was a reasonable question so in the spirit of the forum I told him what I would have done.

Everything I said was factual, I was simply expressing what I would have done.

 

[Belbo]

Or maybe the government could make social security an unattractive last resort, not the free-for-all cash giveaway it now appears. About 33% of each and everyone's tax is spent on untermenchen (look it up) which is a huge drain on the budget.

Instead of dolling out cash that is then spent on everything from booze, fags, pay tv and plasmas and they then complain they need more, convert all these cash handouts to vouchers, only redemable for the bare requirements to sustain themselves (rent, food, utilities).

They should be given priority for state housing/NRAS etc.

There needs to be a disincentive to being on social security.

The same for family tax etc. There needs to be a disincentive to being on it, not an expectation that every family cries poor because they can't afford any food and they have to go to the Salvos because they send their kids off to expensive schools and they need to save for the OS holiday because they deserve it.

The cash giveaway to dole recipients in the budget hardly seems like much of a free-for-all at all -

The new income-support supplement, to take effect next March, will give people on the dole a princely 57¢ a week extra, reducing by a sliver the extent to which we require them to subsist below the poverty line. It is, nevertheless, the first real increase in the dole for more than 20 years.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-about-time-20120515-1youa.html#ixzz1v1CLWSwn

 

[wylie]

Lizzie & Wylie,

Yes, the BER money could and should have been better spent.

But you're missing the point.

All that money still flooded into the economy at just the right moment to stop the GFC throwing Australia into recession!

Yes, some builders and tradies did make unfair profits out of public money, but there simply was no option to slow down to the usual bureaucratic crawl to police the spending better.

I urge you to listen to the interview with the then Treasury Secretary Ken Henry from last night's 7.30 Report on this.

As far as I am aware public schools are locked in to use the one builder. Even if they can get it done for half the price privately.

This is my gripe. Schools could have had so much more work done for the amount they were given to spend. There would be no need for any bureaucratic crawl if they could get quotes from local builders. More work, more jobs, better all round I would think.

This "must use" building company (we all know who it is, but I'm not naming names) closed our tuckshop for one week to replace a splashback behind a workbench.) Now that is efficiency... NOT!!

 

[Aaron_C]

This "must use" building company (we all know who it is, but I'm not naming names) closed our tuckshop for one week to replace a splashback behind a workbench.) Now that is efficiency... NOT!!

That sounds like a Union walk-off rather than something the builder would do.

 

[Token Funder]

Hmmm - don't see how overly expensive, new canteens, school libraries in school that then close down, a massive roller door on the end of the school hall (yep, that was at my daughter's school) and many many other wasted projects improve education.

I am all for education - but it needs to be spent in areas that actually benefit the learning process.

By-the-bye I am not a feverant Liberal fan. In fact I didn't vote Liberal until the last state election. I just think Labor's policies are terrible - including verbally bringing forward the Disability Scheme, without supplying enough money to fund it.

p.s. Joe Hockey on Press Club today. Never seen him talk at length or answer questions before. Was mildly impressed. He did a good job, refused to be drawn into petty pointing and came across as an honest politician.

The stimulus package was created to avoid a recession. It is the answer to the questio, "How much are you prepared to spend to avoid becoming, at best, the US and, at worst, Greece?".

We tend to forget this

As a result, simply flying over the country dropping money from a helicopter would have been a "successful" stimulus if recession was avoided.

Getting infrastructure built was a bonus but arguably all the money could have gone into cafe lattes and tube socks and it could have achieved the intended result.

When you go another year without your house burning down, it is easy to argue you could have gone without the insurance.

 

[wylie]

That sounds like a Union walk-off rather than something the builder would do.

Nothing of the sort. I was there when this all happened. Hubby would have had it done over one weekend, but instead the whole thing closed... one splashback along one or two walls. Unbelievable!