I Have Been Breached By My Tenant - Need Help!

kathryn d said:
Everyone tells you to not take it personally. That's fine, until it is their money and property at stake.
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Yeah, that's it. My nightmare tenants - I just calculated this week - have cost me $32,000 in the past 4 months and put my family in serious cashflow peril. My problem is that I can't relate to what Kath's experiencing, because my own money's not at stake.
Kath Russell said:
Funny things these forums - we don't even know each other yet I'd hate for you think badly of me!
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:D No, no, not frowning or criticising, please don't think that! I was genuinely trying to help you by offering a detached view. :)
Kath Russell said:
My fear of sharing this information on this forum is being seen as vengeful.
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Nah, not at all, not the sharing of info. I meant going so far as to get involved with their insurance company re the personal injury claim. It sounded almost like stalking! But from what you've elaborated, I didn't understand that the tenants claims against you and against the insurer have some commonality, so I now assume that you're involved with their insurer not to be vengeful but to gather evidence to bolster your own case.

Kath, I think you sound very reasonable and intelligent in your posts.
Kath Russell said:
I wouldn't want them to be your tenant, so the only way they're going to be stopped is if I'm involved in stopping them. We're not the first people this has happened to with them. I'm just the first to not let it go any further.
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Hey, I think we're all with you 100% there!
Kath Russell said:
Thanks for listening. I'm glad you're there.
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Please vent away; we're glad to listen. :)
 
Would it help to have a private investigator check them out? There may be something useful you can use against them. Not sure, perhaps a lawyer can give you a better idea.

I think you should do your court case in person, not via a video link and certainly not through your PM.

And when you go looking for a lawyer again, find one that's a completely unreasonable a*&hole.

Good luck, sounds like you're doing a great job in difficult circumstances.
 
Hi Kath,

Last week I spent a day off work, and an hour in front of my tenant being bashed about by her advocate. It would have been something for someone else to see – under the guise of ‘mediation’ I agreed to discuss the issues with a view to finding a resolution and not wasting the courts time. In the process I disclosed much of what I had against the tenant, was emotional in my defence when the advocate was calculated and to cut a long story short, was bullied and intimidated on a few different levels – Tyson v Montgomery Burns. I went in with the intent of conciliation and came out verbally battered.

Then we went before the registrar, who rightly questioned why the advocate was speaking for the tenant. “To help her through the process” was the answer. “OK” was the reply. Lesson number one – mediation is a croc.

I’ve only gone through a sliver of a fraction of what you are living through now, but already there are some valuable lessons & learning experiences. I could go through a lot of detail about what I’ve learned since (eg tenant gets representation because advocate considered to not be a lawyer, but is legally trained, etc) but in summary my short experience has taught me that:

A) when it comes to tenancy disputes the law truly is an ***. You can see it coming in the wording of the res tenancy act, but to experience it is something else. Looks like the common law concept of equity or fairness hasn’t yet permeated these disputes.
B) Experience produces the best learning.

I can only imagine how much you’ve learnt along the way so far, and encourage you to move forward as best you can from here. You’re already streaks ahead of me in your knowledge, and am sure that when you’re out on the other side of this horrible process you’ll feel empowerment as well as relief. I admire how you’ve conducted yourself with this one, and wish you the best.

cE
 
Thank you cE. I shake my head again at hearing of another similar experience.

Our first sitting with the Magistrate last month had the tenant request they be represented by an Advocate as they believed they would be unfairly represented going up against me as they know I used to be a licensed RE Agent. She rejected their request. It's unfortunate because I wanted to suggest that happen. I'd rather deal with an advocate than them. I have contacted the advocate in the last couple of months but they just won't help me. They keep telling me to get legal advice because I'm the owner. Even when I ask them what they're recommending to the tenant and wouldn't they like to discuss matters with me.....NO.

Last Thursday, the NEW Magistrate accepted a notice to the court FROM AN ADVOCATE saying one tenant had to work & the other is suicidal so they can't make court. Have they just gone against the original Magistrate's order? Weren't we just told they can't use an advocate?

In one sense I'm hoping their mental challenges are going to help us dismiss the case. On the other side, if it goes through, I'm thinking they're going to use it to their advantage & think I won't use it to MY advantage because it's going to make me look bloody terrible using that in my defence.

And by the way, if we end up going to trial in December, there'll be ANOTHER NEW Magistrate to deal with. In a way that'll be good because he'll be seeing the case fresh.

tubs - living in a small town is equivalent to a private investigator. It's a big retirement village with eyes everywhere! GIO Insurance are conducting their own investigations now, and they actually started before I contacted them.

As the tenant hasn't appeared at a few court sessions / mediations, I'm not going to fork out AGAIN for a wasted flight, time effort, I'm a full time parent so it mucks my kids around......etc. This is obviously a serious matter, but the video link will be sufficient....of course unless the Magistrate doesn't allow it will be another story. Find out on Wednesday.

We've learnt so much. Have you ever read the Magistrate's Act or the Magistrate's Procedures Act? How I interpret each is that there are rules, and those rules can be adjusted as each Magistrate sees fit. They are the fat controllers. They have the power.

Can't wait to put MY powers, thoughts, energy & life BACK into FULL TIME Mum, Wife & investor ;)
 
Kath Russell said:
Thank you cE. I shake my head again at hearing of another similar experience.

Our first sitting with the Magistrate last month had the tenant request they be represented by an Advocate as they believed they would be unfairly represented going up against me as they know I used to be a licensed RE Agent. She rejected their request. It's unfortunate because I wanted to suggest that happen. I'd rather deal with an advocate than them. I have contacted the advocate in the last couple of months but they just won't help me. They keep telling me to get legal advice because I'm the owner. Even when I ask them what they're recommending to the tenant and wouldn't they like to discuss matters with me.....NO.

Last Thursday, the NEW Magistrate accepted a notice to the court FROM AN ADVOCATE saying one tenant had to work & the other is suicidal so they can't make court. Have they just gone against the original Magistrate's order? Weren't we just told they can't use an advocate?

In one sense I'm hoping their mental challenges are going to help us dismiss the case. On the other side, if it goes through, I'm thinking they're going to use it to their advantage & think I won't use it to MY advantage because it's going to make me look bloody terrible using that in my defence.

And by the way, if we end up going to trial in December, there'll be ANOTHER NEW Magistrate to deal with. In a way that'll be good because he'll be seeing the case fresh.

tubs - living in a small town is equivalent to a private investigator. It's a big retirement village with eyes everywhere! GIO Insurance are conducting their own investigations now, and they actually started before I contacted them.

As the tenant hasn't appeared at a few court sessions / mediations, I'm not going to fork out AGAIN for a wasted flight, time effort, I'm a full time parent so it mucks my kids around......etc. This is obviously a serious matter, but the video link will be sufficient....of course unless the Magistrate doesn't allow it will be another story. Find out on Wednesday.

We've learnt so much. Have you ever read the Magistrate's Act or the Magistrate's Procedures Act? How I interpret each is that there are rules, and those rules can be adjusted as each Magistrate sees fit. They are the fat controllers. They have the power.

Can't wait to put MY powers, thoughts, energy & life BACK into FULL TIME Mum, Wife & investor ;)
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Hi Kath,

As I said in previous post, this is certainly a nightmare nobody want to go through. There people seem calculated. I believe you will win on what your saying. Where do you find "Magistrate's Act or the Magistrate's Procedures Act". Thanks
 
Move to dismiss case

Our previous tenant couldn't attend court last Thursday because he was suicidal, but has made an amazing recovery on Monday to reply to my court application requesting I attend the trial on the 17th via video link.

In the form of an Affidavit, they have accepted that request, but also DENIED A MAGISTRATE'S COURT ORDER to supply us with receipts & further information about their "Summary of Compensation for Losses" - the actual reasons we're going to court. The Order stated they were to supply us with that information by Thursday, 7 days.

So, I'm now completing the forms to REQUEST THE WHOLE CASE AGAINST US IS DISMISSED due to :
- Claimants written denial via Affidavit denying Magistrate's Court Order to supply further detail, receipts & invoices for 'Summary of Compensation for Losses'
- Multiple requests by owner & Property Managers for this information via email & telephone calls constantly rejected
- Multiple requests for same during Registrar court mediations rejected
- Magistrate suggestion 8.10.09 for same to be discussed via email direct between tenant & owner ignored. No response to owner's correspondence

According to the WA Magistrate's Court (Fact Sheet #37 - Google is God!) "A person is guilty of contempt of court when they refuse to give evidence....having been required by the court to produce a record without reasonable excuse.......without reasonble excuse does not comply with the order ...........is liable to a fine of not more than $12,000, imprisonment or both".

This is where their mental capacity and advice come into it - I really don't think they realise what they've just done. They've just given me grounds to have the case dismissed. I'm going for it.
 
This sounds like a real nightmare. I hope it all goes well for you and kudos for you in holding your ground. I'm sure many people may have given up at this stage and that is probbaly what these people were/are planning...

a side note though:

Looking into the possibilities, have you changed the locks on your IP? you just never know what type of revengeful acts some people may plan.


thanks


g
 
Far out Kath you are doing an awesome job !
Every time i have had a tenant do a runner (in Oz)
I have just taken Bond and tryed to move on (while having a good whinge!)
The effort needed to enforce the "LAW" is Wrong !

What you r doing helps all landlords as it shows maybe there is justice when you go after it with everyhing uve got !

I honour you BIG .
 
Kath Russell said:
Our previous tenant couldn't attend court last Thursday because he was suicidal, but has made an amazing recovery on Monday to reply to my court application requesting I attend the trial on the 17th via video link.

In the form of an Affidavit, they have accepted that request, but also DENIED A MAGISTRATE'S COURT ORDER to supply us with receipts & further information about their "Summary of Compensation for Losses" - the actual reasons we're going to court. The Order stated they were to supply us with that information by Thursday, 7 days.

So, I'm now completing the forms to REQUEST THE WHOLE CASE AGAINST US IS DISMISSED due to :
- Claimants written denial via Affidavit denying Magistrate's Court Order to supply further detail, receipts & invoices for 'Summary of Compensation for Losses'
- Multiple requests by owner & Property Managers for this information via email & telephone calls constantly rejected
- Multiple requests for same during Registrar court mediations rejected
- Magistrate suggestion 8.10.09 for same to be discussed via email direct between tenant & owner ignored. No response to owner's correspondence

According to the WA Magistrate's Court (Fact Sheet #37 - Google is God!) "A person is guilty of contempt of court when they refuse to give evidence....having been required by the court to produce a record without reasonable excuse.......without reasonble excuse does not comply with the order ...........is liable to a fine of not more than $12,000, imprisonment or both".

This is where their mental capacity and advice come into it - I really don't think they realise what they've just done. They've just given me grounds to have the case dismissed. I'm going for it.
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Hi kath, I just attended a hearing which I requested to dismiss a claim against me. The Magistrate agreed they failed (they were represented by a lawyer) to submit me relevant document, but he did not dismiss the case. There is NO justice. We are played by those people who wants to drag as long as they can. I am planning to appeal the court order. The quote you said I have read to the Magistrate but he DID not want to listen.
 
Thank you TheAnalyst. Sorry to hear you're in the same boat, but to hear of another experience is helpful.

I had a bit of a disagreement with a friend today about her thoughts about my sharing this information on an online forum (here). She asked me "what if you get caught out writing about it for all the world to see?". My response was THAT'S THE IDEA OF IT!

Not only do I need other landlord's advice, opinions & experience to help us through this, I REALLY WANT PEOPLE / LANDLORDS TO KNOW that if they ever come up against this experience (surely not!) that things can be done.

Like most things, you learn as you go and this has been no exception. It will all be a waste of time once it's over as I'm confident it'll be thrown out. I won't let them get away with this & I won't let them think they can try it on anyone else either.

We're certain we don't need the locks changed. They're capable of alot of things, but not going back to the property.
 
Kath Russell said:
Thank you TheAnalyst. Sorry to hear you're in the same boat, but to hear of another experience is helpful.

I had a bit of a disagreement with a friend today about her thoughts about my sharing this information on an online forum (here). She asked me "what if you get caught out writing about it for all the world to see?". My response was THAT'S THE IDEA OF IT!

Not only do I need other landlord's advice, opinions & experience to help us through this, I REALLY WANT PEOPLE / LANDLORDS TO KNOW that if they ever come up against this experience (surely not!) that things can be done.

Like most things, you learn as you go and this has been no exception. It will all be a waste of time once it's over as I'm confident it'll be thrown out. I won't let them get away with this & I won't let them think they can try it on anyone else either.

We're certain we don't need the locks changed. They're capable of alot of things, but not going back to the property.
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You haven't told us their names....or the address either (I don't think anyways)
This is a good forum to discuss it.
 
I think it might be better if Kath keeps the personal details such as names and addresses private, to avoid more potential allegations such as slander, defamation, etc, and especially since this is a fairly serious legal case already!

I dunno if serious is the right word, since it's as ridiculous as those stories you hear about burgulars suing home owners, for getting their hand cut on the window they broke :rolleyes:
 
vincenzo said:
I think it might be better if Kath keeps the personal details such as names and addresses private, to avoid more potential allegations such as slander, defamation, etc, and especially since this is a fairly serious legal case already!
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Along the same vain you have used your real name to post under and if you now google your name you will find that this post comes up.

As a result if your tenants are so inclined to look for you using google they would find this thread. ( if you ask Sim nicely he can change your posting name;))

Cheers
 
handyandy said:
Along the same vain you have used your real name to post under and if you now google your name you will find that this post comes up.

As a result if your tenants are so inclined to look for you using google they would find this thread. ( if you ask Sim nicely he can change your posting name;))

Cheers
Click to expand...

Exactamondo!

That's why if i had any issues regarding any of my tenants, neighbours, etc, i'd be very carefull about anything i typed. If i wanted to post information such as addresses or full names, i'd be doing it under a username such as TPFKAV :cool:
And from a different ip so the mods can't say boo.
 
Court update

"Kath Russell" IS my username. It's my nickname & maiden name. It's still me though ;). Only workmates & my hubby know me by that name. Still, I am mindful of what I write & totally comfortable with everything I've written.

We've had a change of plans. After further discussions with the Registrar (SOOOO helpful. Doesn't give advice, but certainly explains things well) :

- if I apply for dismissal, a copy will be given to the previous tenant and they will have a ANOTHER chance to answer to it.Unbelievable, but true. Which means, they might think "I better give them copies" (and I believe they would then once they see me requesting dismissal). So we'd end up in court on the 17th anyway.

- Since they've already denied the order in writing that they're meant to give us all documentation & receipts related to the case the Magistrate may not allow them to use them in court if they produce them

- that then means, if they produce them, we can jump up & down noting they have had MORE than ample time & opportunities to produce the documents & they have now DENIED A COURT ORDER for same aswell

- if the Magistrate DOES allow them (please no!!! ....surely!!), we will ask for an adjournment as it wouldn't be fair receiving these on the spot after requesting them over 10 times, in writing, telephone, via Registrar & Magistrate

SCENARIOS
1. If the court allows the documents - we will adjourn, research and decide what we will do for the next trial date that will be set. I will also advise I will now go for current & previous costs related to the case including flights, property managers costs, break of lease costs, rent we've been without due to no access of the property etc that I previously advised them I won't go for due to their financial stress. They've cost me more than just financial stress!

2. If the court doesn't allow the documents - it will all be heresay, which is not allowed. If there is no proof (which there won't be because they have no docs), the case will be dismissed.

They would have had 'natural justice' as in, they would have had their say (with no proof) and that's it! You can't appeal the trial as this is it!

Merry-go-round..............................:rolleyes:
 
Kath, go see a psychiatrist and get a letter, claiming that tenant's behavior and constant hearing adjournments affected your mental health, gave you a depression and put you on a brink of suicide. then send it to court and also file a suit against the tenants for damages.
 
To be honest, the thought had crossed my mind during one of my evil thought sessions, but I'd never drag myself down to their level.

Wouldn't surprise me if they get to court on the 17th with their own letter.
 
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