I'm horrified...

alex in all fairness you are simplifying it a bit too much.

Seeing a proeprty for sale for a low price and buying it in most cases is a bit different to purposely finding somone and then convincing them to take your deal of underpaying when they hadn;t considered it before.

You would only apporach somone who you think would not know any better, as I suggetsed, ask me or my brother what we thought of such a deal for our mother and see what sort of reaction you'd get.

Perhaps the market has tanked in canada and these are the only deals available to profit from ?
 
Sash, what if someone said to you that taking advantage of some 'idiot' (your term) is disgraceful and immoral? Would you not consider a person's lack of knowledge and lack of negotiation skills as a vulnerability? Even more generally, hatred for investors as a group is hardly rare. The fact that we own ips would be considered immoral and disgraceful by some, since we 'prevent' people who want to buy homes from doing so. Is that any more or less justified? Or is it because your code is reasonable and saying landlords are scum isn't?

I wouldn't use the suggested strategy, because I think it smells. However, I hold myself to a higher standard than I hold other people. Just because I am unwilling to use it, though, doesn't mean I will judge someone who does.
Alex, I don't believe Sash meant it in a disrespectful way, but rather as an expression in attempting to make a comparison between those who "should" know better and those who "no longer can" because of age/illness. Perhaps not the best term, and (although I don't know Sash personally) I don't believe he meant it in the context to which you took (and were offended by) it. :eek:
 
Alex Lee....are you serious??

I invest in lower income property....last i looked most of the best bargains I have picked up are from large govt agencies or investors who overleveraged...mostly due to their lack of control.....

You are raising a philosophical and non practical argument. Most people on this site can see the difference between a hard commercial play and preying on the vulnerable.

On this issue....there is not fence sitting....my question to you is are you prepared to to do one of these deals. I judge people on their character and ethics...most people I deal with have ethics.

Would love to hear what you have to say to this....

Sash, what if someone said to you that taking advantage of some 'idiot' (your term) is disgraceful and immoral? Would you not consider a person's lack of knowledge and lack of negotiation skills as a vulnerability? Even more generally, hatred for investors as a whole is hardly rare. The fact that we own ips would be considered immoral by some. Is that any more or less justified? Or is it because your code is reasonable and saying landlords are scum isn't?

I wouldn't use the suggested strategy, but that's because I hold myself to a higher standard than I hold other people. Just because I am unwilling to use it, though, doesn't mean I will judge someone who does.
 
Sash, what if someone said to you that taking advantage of some 'idiot' (your term) is disgraceful and immoral? Would you not consider a person's lack of knowledge and lack of negotiation skills as a vulnerability? Even more generally, hatred for investors as a whole is hardly rare. The fact that we own ips would be considered immoral by some. Is that any more or less justified? Or is it because your code is reasonable and saying landlords are scum isn't?

I disagree with your logic alexlee.

In Australia at least, the actions of kathryn are very easily set aside by courts (I wont use the term "illegal" as not criminal, but clearly against equitable law principles). And courts tend to be the "least common denominator" as to moral principles.

Viewed objectively, her actions are legally and morally wrong. Full stop.

Even more generally, hatred for investors as a whole is hardly rare. The fact that we own ips would be considered immoral by some. Is that any more or less justified? Or is it because your code is reasonable and saying landlords are scum isn't?
Some people might. But thats hardly objective or the common educated belief. Landlords are providers of capital like shareholders or lenders for productive activities in society. They (hopefully) act in a regulated framework in respect of their activities, and provide net gain for society.


I wouldn't use the suggested strategy, but that's because I hold myself to a higher standard than I hold other people. Just because I am unwilling to use it, though, doesn't mean I will judge someone who does.

So by this would you judge people who steal? commit fraud? robbery? armed robbery? thats the slippery slope you're arguing!!
 
alex in all fairness you are simplifying it a bit too much.

Seeing a proeprty for sale for a low price and buying it in most cases is a bit different to purposely finding somone and then convincing them to take your deal of underpaying when they hadn;t considered it. You would only apporach somone who you thikn would not know any better, as I suggetsed, ask me or my brother what we thought of such a deal for our mother and see what sort of reaction you'd get

My point is that it's all subjective. According to you, this strategy is unethical. I agree, and I wouldn't use it. But where does one draw the line? If preying on the elderly who don't know any better is off limits, is taking advantage of a clueless younger seller who doesn't know the value of their property acceptable? I know where I'd draw the line for myself, but I don't presume others to draw the same line.

If you judge other people by your standards, you have to accept judgement by others according to their standards. I'm sure plenty consider owning ips in itself to be a crime against humanity. Should we care about that? If not, why not?
Alex
 
On this issue....there is not fence sitting....my question to you is are you prepared to to do one of these deals. I judge people on their character and ethics...most people I deal with have ethics.

Would love to hear what you have to say to this....

No, I am not prepare to do these deals, because it goes against my morals. However, I would not automatically condemn who does.
 
My point is that it's all subjective. According to you, this strategy is unethical. I agree, and I wouldn't use it. But where does one draw the line? If preying on the elderly who don't know any better is off limits, is taking advantage of a clueless younger seller who doesn't know the value of their property acceptable? I know where I'd draw the line for myself, but I don't presume others to draw the same line.

If you judge other people by your standards, you have to accept judgement by others according to their standards. I'm sure plenty consider owning ips in itself to be a crime against humanity. Should we care about that? If not, why not?
Alex

I suggested one of the differences being in the chasing of such a deal.

In Sash's case, he sees a property for ale and pays a fair price.

In this one, Kathryn goe slooking for a potentially good deal and suggests to someone who hasn;t; cnsidered it before to take it.

That might be considered a kin to finding an out of schooler & saying lies like I'll make ya rich, pay me $800k and I'll get you the best bloody 1 be 25 sqm apt in the perth cbd, when they are selling for $300k... knowing that there will be a very very very high chance the kid will default on the loan cause they cant afford it (you arrange finance for him to get him over the line by lying) and therefore you dont even have to delive the whole over priced property he's paid for ....
 
I disagree with your logic alexlee.

In Australia at least, the actions of kathryn are very easily set aside by courts (I wont use the term "illegal" as not criminal, but clearly against equitable law principles). And courts tend to be the "least common denominator" as to moral principles.

Ok, but then that's a matter of law. If the strategy is illegal, than the moral question is irrelevant.

Viewed objectively, her actions are legally and morally wrong. Full stop.

The legal issue is one to be decided by the courts. Morally, I do consider it wrong by my own moral code. But morals are never objective, because they're different for each person.

Some people might. But thats hardly objective or the common educated belief. Landlords are providers of capital like shareholders or lenders for productive activities in society. They (hopefully) act in a regulated framework in respect of their activities, and provide net gain for society.

Yes, I agree with this, but that's just us. If you take a poll of the 'common' person, you might be surprised at the results. I think you'll find most people are negative about landlords. I disagree with them, but that's just me. I suspect, however, that you are actually in the minority in thinking landlords are a positive force in the economy. I certainly don't automatically consider myself part of the 'educated, common' group. Nor do I think landlords are a net gain for society. We're an alternative to rent control and public housing. It is a net gain? Don't know. Don't care.

So by this would you judge people who steal? commit fraud? robbery? armed robbery? thats the slippery slope you're arguing!!

If there is both legal and moral justification for murder, there is legal and moral justification for anything. We operate within the law, of course, but there are a lot of grey areas. The law should be objective and apply to everyone. If something is considered illegal there should be a price paid. Morals are subjective, and we shouldn't foist them on other people.
Alex
 
An average $130K house

Taxes $1200
Insurance $900
Heat & lights $3500
Maintenance $1000

It will cost us $400 month for 15 months, and it is paid off.
After that we make $400 month profit minimum.


Total outlay = $12,600
House value = $130,000

Not even a lousy 10%....how do you sleep??? :eek:


I also put an ad offering a senior to live in their home rent free, and we will also pay their heat and lights and give them a small monthly stipend. (in exchange they sell us their house for $1)
Let's be fair here, you're paying a tad more than a lousy buck even with the sale of your soul!!!

You just need to think outside the box.
Again I have to ask, what kind of box.....pine or cardboard???

Pretty sure the way I read it was that the $400pm deal was a separate deal to this $130k house paying approx $5500 annual(?) fees/taxes. Kathryn also suggested that they pay the "tenant" a monthly stipend. (Not sure how small "small" is).

So while I also disagree in principle with the proposal (I also disagree in principle with wrapping :eek: so what do I know?) I wouldn't use these numbers to judge the financial aspect of this deal.
 
That might be considered a kin to finding an out of schooler & saying lies like I'll make ya rich, pay me $800k and I'll get you the best bloody 1 be 25 sqm apt in the perth cbd, when they are selling for $300k... knowing that there will be a very very very high chance the kid will default on the loan cause they cant afford it (you arrange finance for him to get him over the line by lying) and therefore you dont even have to delive the whole over priced property he's paid for ....

Odious, yes. I certainly wouldn't do it.

Am I just very, very jaded? There are so many things that happen in the world that I find morally wrong, but are nevertheless legal, or at least not illegal until a lengthy court case. Often, justice in a court of law is a matter of who has the deeper pockets.

I don't judge others by my morals, because my head would explode with righteous rage. Is it so hard for people to believe that some people just don't care?
Alex
 
Good to know you are not prepared to do these deals....

I think we need to agree to disagree....somethings in life are non-negotiable to my way of life.


No, I am not prepare to do these deals, because it goes against my morals. However, I would not automatically condemn who does.

;)
 
Good to know you are not prepared to do these deals....

I won't do it because, at a purely personal level, I consider it morally wrong. Should I care whether you consider this to be good or not? Why do I need your moral approval? Or care whether you disapprove? I would act the same way if you considered this to be a great strategy to make money. Does that moral independence make me a better or worse person?

Fine, some things are non-negotiable to YOUR way of life. That's fine, but why push it on someone else? Seriously, haven't we had enough flak from people who consider owning ips to be morally wrong?
 
why not?
nursing homes and aged care facilities are legal and a lot of people don't think twice about putting their relatives in those.

this ain't any different
 
But I don't care whether you feel good or not. Should I? Why do I need your moral approval? Or care whether you disapprove?
Then why do you care, what word he used in the first place?
If you think he is wrong to say what he did, that's fine, but in judging him for the words he chose to use is no better than judging someone for their immoral intentions (which as far as we know is still only a plan).
 
An average $130K house

Taxes $1200
Insurance $900
Heat & lights $3500
Maintenance $1000

It will cost us $400 month for 15 months, and it is paid off.
After that we make $400 month profit minimum.

Total outlay = $12,600
House value = $130,000

Not even a lousy 10%....how do you sleep??? :eek:


I also put an ad offering a senior to live in their home rent free, and we will also pay their heat and lights and give them a small monthly stipend. (in exchange they sell us their house for $1)
Let's be fair here, you're paying a tad more than a lousy buck even with the sale of your soul!!!

You just need to think outside the box.
Again I have to ask, what kind of box.....pine or cardboard???

You have run 2 different deals together.

The $135k deal is to be paid for with

Taxes $1200
Insurance $900
Heat & lights $3500
Maintenance $1000
Per annum - so a total of $6,600 pa This will equate to a interest rate of 4.8%. This may increase if there is a small monthly allowance.

Really not that much different to the aged care industry - $300k in plus the pension and we will keep the interest earned on the money and keep $15k of it as well. And by the way we will cut all costs - like quality food in the mean time.

As I understand it it can run for a long time (infinitum) so if the person lives for 20 years they will have paid the full $135k at no interest. In the mean time this is a -cf deal.

Some of the properties that Kathryn looks at are very cheap and +cf. No further info was given re the 15 month deal as to the actual purchase price which obviously must be $6k with some sort of vendor finance.

If you want to do these deals go for it.

Cheers
 
You are raising a philosophical and non practical argument. Most people on this site can see the difference between a hard commercial play and preying on the vulnerable.

Sash

Why is this preying on the vulnerable?

Someone who can no longer pay for the expenses involved with running the home but don't want to go into a retirement home - this may be the ideal option for them.

The reality is why should they worry about their relatives and what they are left (lets not talk about vultures picking over the bones) through this process they are assured (or should be) that their house is warm water proof and won't get taken by the govn for non payment of taxes.

Certainly if they live for a long time >10 then in fact the amount to be paid will increase substantially as all those cost will escalate and more than likely double within the 10 year time frame. So really is it such a good deal - life insurance companies do a lot of studies and still get it wrong!!!!

Cheers
 
Nonetheless maybe Kathryn can set the record straight, post the calculation clearly instead of making ludicrous claims like "buying the house for $1" and giving people (not just a wrong) but bad impression of what might otherwise be legally (and morally) viable.

Just quietly, if I were Kathryn; after the vilification and abuse of character served up by this thread, I wouldn't be posting anything of the sort.

Perhaps sending her a PM to seek further facts and clarification, instead of starting a public lynching, might have been a more appropriate course of action to begin with?
 
Just quietly, if I were Kathryn; after the vilification and abuse of character served up by this thread, I wouldn't be posting anything of the sort.

Perhaps sending her a PM to seek further facts and clarification, instead of starting a public lynching, might have been a more appropriate course of action to begin with?
You're a good man James, and right of course. I never intended a public lynching but it seems I have instigated just that.

Please ask the mods to remove it, if you feel that is what has transpired.

Enough from me, I've said too much already (so it seems).
 
I'm surprised to see so many turn so quickly on a long time contributor to this forum!

I'm very much with Alex on this one, there are many things I won't do to turn a dollar, this included...but its is not illegal and if there is a demand for it, there will be an investor for it...
 
I won't do it because, at a purely personal level, I consider it morally wrong. Should I care whether you consider this to be good or not? Why do I need your moral approval? Or care whether you disapprove? I would act the same way if you considered this to be a great strategy to make money. Does that moral independence make me a better or worse person?

Fine, some things are non-negotiable to YOUR way of life. That's fine, but why push it on someone else? Seriously, haven't we had enough flak from people who consider owning ips to be morally wrong?

Monopoly,

This post by alexlee, and the one preceding it - says it all.

We all have different morals and most of the time our opinions are based on what we have learnt.

It's not for me, personally. But that is just my opinion.:rolleyes:

Regards JO
 
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