Immigration

so are you a registered Architect, bespoke?

i guess that dude fits that bill of "if you drink and draw, you're a bloody architect"... :p

No, I'm not. I have the first degree needed but not the second. Life and a family got in the way of getting the second degree and then financial pressures forced me back to work in the industry I left to go to uni, although in a lesser much lower paying role. Now it would be very difficult financially as we are used to the money to go back for 2 years to do it.

Its a big regret for me and will be for the rest of my life as it was something I wanted to do as a child and I would love to complete it but at this stage in my life (40's), I'm not sure its worth the financial sacrifice needed. I want to stay in Newcastle which has a very small job pool for Architects and as you may know, contrary to popular belief, most Architects dont earn huge wages, I know the average electrician earns more. If I can get civilian quals in the industry I am in (have military quals), after a couple of years I will earn twice what the average Architect earns.

So, its a dillema. Do I go for the job I would love but pays so so or the job that gets me a very good wage but one that I like about 60% of Architecture but would allow me to retire earlier?

Its a question I cant answer right now, I think I'll know the answer when I'm 80......?
 
you're right - architects don't earn that much.

funny how times change.

surveyors used to be in the same league as surgeons and judges, now they make a pittance. it's still 7 years of study and a very serious responsibility, though.

architects used to be in the same league as lawyers and doctors. seems that too is slipping by the wayside.

this is the main reason i never went for my degree. why bother when i can earn the same - or more - just trotting myself out there. doesn't mean i'm not interested in quality and functioning design - but i certainly don't earn a living designing pieces of art for people to reside in.

i'd say it's an interest now, more than a career path.

and Graemsay, keep posting about immigration. i don't physically know anyone who has immigrated AND talks about it.
 
Yes, absolutely.
I know an english couple who live near me (friends of my sister) who wanted to come to Australia to live and the only way they could get here was to emigrate to NZ, get their citizenship and then they came to Australia. They have been hear about 12 years now and doing very nicely. Not sure if it is still a way to get here though as rules have most definatley changed since.

Certainly has changed. Im a kiwi. I can tell you its harder to get into NZ then Aus. Though certainly not in the past. Turns out all you need is a boat that can cruise to christmas island and your a citizen of Australia. If you look on google maps you will see that xmas island is a stones throw from Indonesia.

As for NZ being the back door to Aus. True for naturals. No so true for international. It is done but as i said. Certainly harder to enter now as opposed to 5years ago.

En-Zud people also have no access to unemployment benefits since approx 10 years ago. Unless we chose to be an australian citizen:D ... yes never gonna happen so no unemployment benefit for kiwis
 
What do ya know. Right on cue. Another 48 just today. So to release the pressure on Xmas island that would mean at least 20 have to be made australian citizens immediately. Too easy I tell ya.
 
My visa came through yesterday too. I'm glad I applied when I did because it seems to have been getting progressively more difficult over the six months. :)
Congratulations, Graemsay!

Re the "easier for hairdressers than academics"... that's definitely true. Here's a well-known racket in the Vietnamese community a few years ago (and probably Chinese etc, but I know Vietnamese who've done this)...

You have no special skills yourself, but you're an Australian permanent resident. You set up a hair or nail salon - out of your garage is fine, because it doesn't really matter if you have customers. ;) Now you need to employ nail technicians and hairdressers, both of which are on the old "skills in demand" list, and allow you to sponsor people to immigrate. So you advertise among your contacts in Vietnam that you can get people into Australia and will give them a good-paying job when they get here.

Your prospective staff pay you $50K and in return, they get a job for two years and immigration. The prospective staff go to a hairdresser or nail technician college in Vietnam that you nominate - they may have to spend a day or two there "learning", depending on just how flexible the college's "ethics" are - and after they've paid the college, say, $1,000, they give the prospective staff member a recognised "qualification".

You then sponsor the person to come to Australia and they're accepted. Then they have to work for you for 2 years, and I think there was a minimum wage you had to pay ($50K pa?) to qualify for sponsorship. So you pay them $50K pa on the books, and off the books, you deduct the $35K pa or whatever was left after tax etc as a "sponsorship fee". Since the $50K salary is a tax deduction to the business and you're getting $35K back, they effectively cost you nothing. Of course you get as many clients through your garage as you can.

So after 2 years, your staff member has citizenship and can go somewhere where they're hopefully not exploited - or at least, not as much. :( You've got $50K up-front, and a staff member working for free for 2 years, who's probably earned you easily $40K per year (even at the cheap rates the Vietnamese charge!).

What I don't understand is that most Australians would be far more outraged at this than the Vietnamese - even those who know they're being exploited! They just accept it as "how the world works".

On a similar vein, many Vietnamese seem to think nothing of allowing other Vietnamese to employ them for very low wages. For example, I know someone who worked at a butcher's shop for $80 per day, and he worked "whatever was required", which turned out to be 13 hours. That's $6.15 per hour. :( And of course it's all cash - no tax from wages, no payroll tax, no super, etc.

What frustrates me is this: these people (and I mean this particular group engaging in this behaviour, not all Vietnamese) wanted to come to Australia because I assume they think we have a better quality of life. Don't they understand that we have a better quality of life largely because we have protection for workers and pay decent taxes? If they're unwilling to participate in those activities, don't they see that they're eroding the very quality of life that attracted them to this country? :confused:

(For those who are unaware, I share my home with a Vietnamese family and have done so for 6 years. I have a Vietnamese goddaughter. I definitely have nothing against the Vietnamese; I just get frustrated at some of the practises that are tolerated within their community.)
 
Ahhh..... so thats why there have been so many manicure/nail bars pop up in the last few years! There seems to be at least one in every shopping centre now and they only have young asian staff. Their prices are so cheap I used to wonder how they made any money. I thought they were international students they were employing.

Will be interesting to see how many shut up shop now the rules have changed. Have to give them 10 out of 10 for ingenuity though. I'd never have thought of something like that... not that I'd do it mind you. I couldn't exploit people like that.
 
Ahhh..... so thats why there have been so many manicure/nail bars pop up in the last few years! There seems to be at least one in every shopping centre now and they only have young asian staff. Their prices are so cheap I used to wonder how they made any money. I thought they were international students they were employing.

Will be interesting to see how many shut up shop now the rules have changed. Have to give them 10 out of 10 for ingenuity though. I'd never have thought of something like that... not that I'd do it mind you. I couldn't exploit people like that.
Yes, it all makes sense when viewed in context. ;) But like you, I couldn't live with myself doing this, either. (And nor could my Vietnamese friends, but they don't find it as horrifying a practise as I do.)

And yes, I'm sure many of them will close shop in about 18 months or so. The employees have to continue working for the employer for 2 years to meet the requirements, and the employer's making money out of them for those 2 years, so both parties are motivated to "stick it out" for 2 years.
 
I would hazard a guess that there are more ethnic communities than just the Viets/Chinese doing similar things too.


I too am interested in the changes to immigration. MY former housemate, an Iranian fellow, was applying for a visa to come and study here as a path to getting permanent residency. His sister and her family are already living here - she was given political assylum after writing a newspaper article or something attacking the islamic regieme back in Iran - and he already has a degree in industrial management, and an IELTS score of 7.5 or something (pretty decent).

He went back home in sept 2008, so i dont know if he has been successful yet.
I hope he has been successful - because he is the type of immigrant that we want here. His family are still very "Persian" in culture, but have completely adapted to Aussie living and the australian community.... they strongly believe in being "persian-australians".
Very hard working and definitely not bludgers!
 
my sister married an Iranian GP.

his family are VERY smart, hard workers. they invest in property, stocks, have families, a wide range of friends....much like the builder generation (god bless their good souls).

why did they emigrate from Iran? they're not Islamic and their religion puts them at risk of beheading. They had to get out of Iran first and into Saudi, then from Saudi into the UK, then UK to Australia. they had Iranian officials chasing them in Saudi for 5 of those, until they could get a break through channels to the UK.

took them 7 years to get here in total - 7 years of hell - and you can bet they have a FANTASTIC opinion about current immigration legislation.
 
I'd bet this guy's sister had to go through similar hell to get here.

My housemate is also not islamic, only pretends to be when in Iran. He calls himself Persian before he would call himself Iranian.

You are right, all the Persians i met through him were all very much like the builder generation - hard workers and damn appreciative to be in Australia.


... and they make some good food too!
 
I just happened to read this forum... Being a Vietnamese immigrant (first generation) and property investor, I thought I should give forumites a bit of background to this “Vietnamese business”.

You need to understand the sheer desperation of a lot of people in Vietnam to get out of the country. Many of you would have visited Vietnam and found beautiful scenery + friendly people + an economy on the rise. This is very true. But most foreigners do not venture out of city centres and tourist spots. The outer suburbs and countryside that house 80% of the population are still extremely poor where people subsist on incomes below $2/day. The economy is very much under the control of members of the Party who view national resources as their own. They throw people off their land so they could resell it at several thousand % profit. And they use the secret police to shut up whoever dare to protest. So much we call this mob the Red Mafia (capitalistic gangsters draped in a red flag).

Every year thousands of Vietnamese girls try to get married to husbands (mostly old, poor or handicapped fellows who can’t find a wife otherwise) in South Korea, Taiwan... Most of these girls volunteer to do this out of love for their families to get their parents out of poverty but end up in dysfunctional relationships where abuse is a regular occurrence. The agencies that operate these schemes are run by the Mafia.

Thousands more travel illegally to Western Europe via Russia, Poland, cross the Channel and end up growing cannabis for drug dealers in England or selling contraband stuff in the Czech Republic. When leaving Vietnam they had no intention to do this drug thing but ended up doing it anyway after the people smugglers confiscated their passports and forced them to work to repay their “travel costs”. In the meantime their homes in Vietnam have to be mortgaged at exorbitant rates to fund the travel “deposit” so that after a couple of years these are repossessed by shady banks run by the Mafia.

You should also be aware that most of the under age prostitution in Cambodia is done by Vietnamese girls who are lured into “good jobs” so that they could feed their families back home.

Compared to the above, the scheme described by ozperp is just small fish. Although a scam (that I don’t condone in any shape or form), these schemes generally do not involve people smugglers, drug dealers or the official Mafia. They aren’t on a large scale either. A further twist is that some people in Australia who agree to do these things feel they are doing a favour to the people who so desperatley want to get out, and likewise the worker can feel gratitude for their exploiter.

If you look at this issue worldwide, problems that exist in developing countries are sure to hit the developed world at some stage in some form. Australia should not feel somewhat shielded. If we can, we should help these countries solve their problems at their roots, ie poverty and totalitarian governance. It will benefit us in the long run.

As for the question how can Vietnamese people live off such ridiculous pay in Australia, the answer is that we are used to live frugally, work very hard and are very determined to make the best of the opportunity to live in this great country. Parents feel they have the duty to sacrifice for their kids, and later in life, the children have the duty to take care of their parents. Duty is a key world in Vietnamese family relationship. This is why with very little income, so many families have been able to send their kids to private schools, pay off their homes and even... invest! I suppose this may be true with other immigrant groups too.

A last comment: the current Vietnamese immigrants to Australia have little in common with the refugees that came here in the 70s and 80s. The refugees feared for their lives due to political persecution while now people are mostly looking for better economic opportunities.
Sorry for the long post...

Truong
 
good post Truong. and before reading my comments below, understand I have many good Vietnamese friends.

However, I think it is important to contemplate what will happen to Vietnam if all the noble entrepreneurs hightail it out to the west.

Sooner or later, good Vietnamese people need to take a stance against the bullies.

Every western nation has had to do it, and sacrifice life and fortunes in doing so. Just read Western history.

Sometimes I think people from developing nations think there's no moral imperative to stay and fight for what they believe in, for what is right. If they are incensed by the bullying and corruption, let them group together, and rise up and conquer evil in their homeland.

How can they ever learn to value what is good if they do not stand up for it, but rather are handed it on a platter on Christmas Island.

IMHO, if the bleeding hearts of the west want to help developing nations, they should take their attention of humanitarian migration programs and pressure whoever is behind keeping thugs in power. China and North Korea are responsible for much of it. There's so much that could be done by the west to drag Chinese govt elites into the 21st century.
 
Sooner or later, good Vietnamese people need to take a stance against the bullies.

Every western nation has had to do it, and sacrifice life and fortunes in doing so. Just read Western history.

one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

look at the viet cong. who was right? history is written by the winners.
 
I’m with you WW.

The leaders in China and Vietnam are much shrewder than those in communist Eastern Europe. They won’t let happen something like the velvet revolution. They allow a seemingly free economy to draw out all the benefits of capitalism but still hold all the strings. In Vietnam all the CEOs of large and medium enterprises are high ranking members of the Party or the Army. They treat commercial business like intra-party business. A Party membership card is much more valuable there than a university degree or a large capital.

At the same time they shut down all political dissent, drawing out the “best” features of military dictators and fascists. But rather than prohibiting opposition groups, they are shrewd enough to set up puppet organisations under their control. In Vietnam, all the so called “civil society” organisations are their own creation, from trade unions to churches, newspapers to charities, youth and womens’ groups, etc... Anyone trying to operate outside these organisations are put in jail, not for political dissent, but for contravening the... associations law! In theory there are NO political prisoners whatsoever.

If you happen to promote democracy, you may be charged with “high treason against the Motherland” (maximum penalty is death). How come? Well, Vietnam being a one-party state, any talk of multi-party is clearly against the State, isn’t it?

The Mafia hold absolute power in all spheres of society, there’s very little people can do.

WW, Asia is not Europe. Asia has a long history of obedience to all sorts of power, be it political, social, cultural or generational. This is why China and Vietnam are so hell bent now on promoting Confucius. Besides, China and North Vietnam have never known democracy. They just don’t know what it is. South Vietnam had about 20 years of relative freedom until it was overrun by North Vietnam in 1975 so you’ll find it much more easy going.

In the meantime, the Western powers including Australia seem to accommodate rather than confront dictatorship. I guess we are slaves to our trade with China. I don’t know whether this is good or bad, but it’s surely a dangerous thing in the long run.

Truong
 
The economy is very much under the control of members of the Party who view national resources as their own.
Yes, true. The couple I live with are very interesting in their differing perspectives. His Mum is very high up in "the Party", and whilst I get the impression his rural family are still quite poor, they're less poor than the other people in their remote village and think their life is quite good.

Her parents are academics who are less enthusiastic about "the Party", and as a result, were forced to live in different cities for most of their married lives (until recent years). They speak contemptuously of the system and are very pro-democracy.

As recently as 2004, Thuy (wife) was here in Australia beginning her Masters, and her husband was back in Vietnam caring for their 4yo son and completing his own degree. Thuy was all of a sudden unable to contact him for about a week. Turns out the police had burst into their apartment at 3am and taken him away, and kept him imprisoned and beaten him up, leaving the 4yo to fend for himself. (He took himself to the neighbours who looked after him.) What was it all about? They suspected he'd cheated, or helped somebody else cheat, on some university entrance exam three years earlier! :eek: :eek: Can you imagine?
truong said:
Compared to the above, the scheme described by ozperp is just small fish.
Yes, it's easy to see how such a "scam" would seem "small fry".
truong said:
further twist is that some people in Australia who agree to do these things feel they are doing a favour to the people who so desperatley want to get out, and likewise the worker can feel gratitude for their exploiter.
I'm sure that's true, too!
truong said:
As for the question how can Vietnamese people live off such ridiculous pay in Australia, the answer is that we are used to live frugally, work very hard and are very determined to make the best of the opportunity to live in this great country.
Yep, they run off the smell of an oily rag!

Welcome to the forum, truong, and thanks for explaining things from a Vietnamese perspective. I'm glad you appreciate that I was definitely not having a go at the Vietnamese, for whom I have a huge fondness and appreciation, but at the ridiculousness of a system which values hairdressers and nail technicians above academics, and allows such a scam to exist. :)
 
Thanks ozperp.

No, I don't think you're having a go at the Vietnamese. We have our load of problems too.

But behind every immigrant/refugee/boatpeople who come to our shore there's always a human story, a complex combination of tragedy and survival that could be very sad or inspiring. After going through so much myself, I've decided not to pass judgment on others any more. People usually don't decide to leave their country on a whim but because it's their last resort.

I understand the government has a duty to protect us against illegal immigration but in doing so we should not shame the people who try to do it. There's a fine balance between efficiency and compassion that's extremely difficult to keep.

Truong
 
People usually don't decide to leave their country on a whim but because it's their last resort.

By the same token Truong, if migrants are seriously just trying to escape political oppression in their homeland, they just have to cross the border.

When migrants put up more money than an honest compatriot would make in a lifetime, to make a bee line to a developed nation, only a naive bleeding heart could believe anything other than economic opportunism is the primary motivator.

I have very good Vietnamese friends who escaped on a boat in the 70s. They ended in the Philippines. They might have been happy to stay there if they were purely just trying to escape the tyranny of home.....but as with so many developing world migrants, they saw more 'opportunity' in a developed nation like Australia.

Until we all get honest about what drives the desire of the disgruntled in developing nations to migrate to Australia, we aren't going to be able to choose migrants well. And choose we have to.

1/2 the world's developing world population want to migrate to Australia.
And they all have a life story that developed world people consider sad.

But having a sad life story should not be the criteria for being granted Australian citizenship. Otherwise, we'd have to accept 1000x the migrants we currently do.
 
But having a sad life story should not be the criteria for being granted Australian citizenship. Otherwise, we'd have to accept 1000x the migrants we currently do.

Completely agree.
Which is why i support our immigration policies of targeting skilled migrants, and not just anyone.... whilst still giving allowances to genuine refugees.
 
WW, I can’t speak for others but only for myself. Sorry again for this long post...

We too fled Vietnam at the end of the 70s on a boat. We didn’t have the luxury to go to any neighbouring country as they were all communist, China in the North, Laos in the North West and Cambodia (then run by the Khmer Rouge) in the South West. The sea was our last hope.

My family was classed by the new rulers as reactionary and anti-revolutionary because we had a doctor who served in the army, a public servant, a pharmacist and an English teacher. My sister and her family was sent to a wilderness area called “new economic zone”. They escaped back only to find their home confiscated, so they came to live with us illegally. At the time people needed a family certificate to be able to buy food. Illegals had no certificate therefore no food. As “enemies of the people” my son was not allowed to go to school. When my father and brother finally came back from “reeducation camp”, sick and broken, they too didn’t have food certificates. No work, no food, no schooling, no nothing, we lived in constant fear of being door knocked at night and whisked away. We only survived by selling bits of clothing, furniture on the black market but it was obvious we couldn’t go on doing this indefinitely. Fleeing was our last resort.

WW, I’m not telling all this to make you commiserate over my “sad life”, but just think, would you do any differently if you were in my shoes? Escaping by boat was the most determined decision I ever made in my life.

We tried three times but only the third one was successful. Every time we were caught, we were put back in jail and only released after much bribing. All our possessions went into buying boats, food and equipment for our sea journeys and paying officialdom so they close their eyes and let us go. Vietnam’s current Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung was at the time a police commander, well known for having made his fortune then. By all means we were not poor but were left with only our shirts on our backs when we finally succeeded.

My friend organised everything. He knew where to buy a fishing boat, fuel and water and hire somebody to steer the boat. Almost a hundred people got onto the boat including many that I had never met. It was full to the brim and almost couldn’t move. All of us had paid our share of the cost to my friend. Technically speaking you could call him a people smuggler, but he was no smuggler as he was trying to get his family out as well. He accepted the coordinating role only because noone else could do it as it was pretty dangerous.

When I see people now throwing shame on people smugglers, I can’t help but thinking of him, a dentist and the nicest character you could find on earth. True, there are professional smugglers nowadays but he wasn’t one of them.

Two days out on the sea, our compass was broken but we just had to go on. Several ships went by without stopping although we were sure they did see us. On the fifth night we were attacked by pirates. This was the nightmare I hope none of you would have to live through. They took everything we had, raped our wives and daughters and sabotaged our boat. I know some other boats where people were killed and young girls taken away by pirates not to be found again. In the middle of the ocean, we were on our final legs when we were picked up by a ship.

When I now hear people say “Just push them back to the sea”, I can’t help thinking “if only they knew!”

We were brought to Indonesia. There were tens of thousands of boatpeople like us all over a number of refugees camps across South East Asia. I accept that it was a great burden to all the countries involved but what else could I do? We lived in the camp with little knowledge about what was going to happen to our fate. We just waited and lived by the day. After 18 months we were interwieved by Australia and got accepted. Australia was the only country that accepted us. May She be blessed! We will be for ever indebted to this country that you will never imagine. Why deprive yourselves of the grace of giving life back to somebody? My grand children will be told this story so they know why they are Australians.

Having said all that, I accept that our own circumstances can be very different from other people’s nowadays. But having been through all that, it would be extremely callous for me to pass judgement on them. Sure, I’m all for the right process to bar people from coming in illegally, but Gosh, I know that if I ever deny help to one single genuine refugee because of my misconceptions then I would never be able to live with myself.

Truong
 
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