Immigration

[Aaron Sice]

truong - thanks you so much for providing clarity to an issue that seems to be so "simple" standing on the other side of the fence. while i'm no nazi, i do wonder if there's ever that little more to a story than being told.

i truly applaud your courage to speak about it so openly on a public forum.

i wish i could do more to help other than click the little "kudos" button.

i am truly humbled sitting here in front of my little lappo...

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Having said all that, I accept that our own circumstances can be very different from other people’s nowadays. But having been through all that, it would be extremely callous for me to pass judgement on them. Sure, I’m all for the right process to bar people from coming in illegally, but Gosh, I know that if I ever deny help to one single genuine refugee because of my misconceptions then I would never be able to live with myself.

Truong

Truong, my friends had a similar story.....four on their boat died of starvation and dehydration....etc etc.

The point is, what % of the Vietnamese population should Australia accept as migrants? and same for Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Sudan, etc.

Surely, you must be aware of the atrocities the Sudanese have faced. Does that mean the best option is to 10,000,000 Sudanese to Australia?

You keep saying 'what option did we have?" That's where I would say take a leaf out of Western history......the West only made great steps towards democracy when the proletariat rose up against the tyranny of militant and decadent elites. Personally, I'd rather die fighting for freedom and good.

In saying all this, I know it probably sounds harsh, but I am not saying it out of fear of migration. I am saying it out of my understanding of history, and what I think will result in the greatest good for the greatest number. No offense or disrespect meant towards you.

 

[truong]

thanks you so much for providing clarity to an issue that seems to be so "simple" standing on the other side of the fence.

Thank you Blue Card

my friends had a similar story.....four on their boat died of starvation and dehydration....etc etc.

Yes WW, my story is by no means unique...

The point is, what % of the Vietnamese population should Australia accept as migrants? and same for Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Sudan, etc. Surely, you must be aware of the atrocities the Sudanese have faced. Does that mean the best option is to 10,000,000 Sudanese to Australia?

There's no argument Australia should limit its humanitarian intake. All I'm saying is that we can do so without demonising these people. I was one of them. I guess I've been a good Australian since being here. They too will be good Australians, I'm sure.

That's where I would say take a leaf out of Western history......the West only made great steps towards democracy when the proletariat rose up against the tyranny of militant and decadent elites. Personally, I'd rather die fighting for freedom and good.

A 20 year war between communist North and capitalist South that killed over a million people isn't proof enough for our thirst of freedom? If left to develop normally South Vietnam could have been another South Korea (in the 1950s both countries were at about the same development stage, politically and economically, and had the same development strategy and the same sort of alliance with the West).

But the war was lost. The way to freedom now has to be different.

No offense or disrespect meant towards you.

No offense taken. You look at cold facts while I'm immersed in the human tragedies behind them. Both point of views have their place.

Truong

 

[WinstonWolfe]

You look at cold facts while I'm immersed in the human tragedies behind them. Both point of views have their place.

Truong

On the contrary Truong, as a physiotherapist, most weeks I am intimately involved with the lives of physically and mentally scarred Vietnam Vets. And 18 years ago, I spent time in Sikkim teaching Tibetan refugees advanced first aid. Truong, through your determination, you are no longer immersed in the human tragedies. You are in Australia.

And on the contrary, what I have been saying is the price of liberty and freedom from despots is high. Often it requires superhuman courage, determination, and sacrifice. The forces of darkness on earth will always be amongst us.

For all of the American bashing that goes on, I think their founding fathers and the British that inspired them, had it right

It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.
Irish orator John Philpot Curran : 1790

Re the 20 year Vietnam war, there were much longer wars in European history, from which democracy evolved and prevailed.

 

[Perp]

And on the contrary, what I have been saying is the price of liberty and freedom from despots is high. Often it requires superhuman courage, determination, and sacrifice. The forces of darkness on earth will always be amongst us.

For all of the American bashing that goes on, I think their founding fathers and the British that inspired them, had it right

It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.
Irish orator John Philpot Curran : 1790

Re the 20 year Vietnam war, there were much longer wars in European history, from which democracy evolved and prevailed.

To suggest that as a result of accident of birth, everybody should be required to have the strength of character of an Aung San Suu Kyi, is a pretty high standard to hold people to. She won a Nobel Prize because she's exceptional.

I do think there's validity to your point that we also have to work to remedy the root causes of people wanting to immigrate (whether it's related to limited freedom, persecution, or economic distress). Where I think I disagree with you is that I don't think it's reasonable to disproportionately impose the burden of this enormous task on the people whose birth placed them in the midst of the situation. You seem to be saying that we shouldn't help our any individuals who are bearing the burden, because they should be working to remedy the root cause. (Accept my apologies if I've misunderstood your position.)

I don't believe that national boundaries are of any ethical significance in our moral obligation to other human beings.

To use a small example from your field which perhaps illustrate my point... It sounds to me as though, extending your logic, that one would say to somebody with motor neurone disease: "look, it's you that has motor neurone disease. It's not up to our government to assist you with paying for carers and providing medical care. Can't you go to university and come up with a cure for motor neurone disease? It's possible; look at Stephen Hawking!"

We have to help those people who have spinal injuries, at the same time as we work on safer motor vehicles, safer behaviours by humans, and motor neurone disease research, etc.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

To use a small example from your field which perhaps illustrate my point... It sounds to me as though, extending your logic, that one would say to somebody with motor neurone disease: "look, it's you that has motor neurone disease. It's not up to our government to assist you with paying for carers and providing medical care. Can't you go to university and come up with a cure for motor neurone disease? It's possible; look at Stephen Hawking!"

We have to help those people who have spinal injuries, at the same time as we work on safer motor vehicles, safer behaviours by humans, and motor neurone disease research, etc.

OP, Australia's resources are not limitless, neither the number of the world's less privileged Australia can accept as migrants.

Australia is borrowing money from overseas to fund overseas humanitarian missions.

Australia is selling off its assets and mines, its future income streams and potential to do good, to do good now.

If Australia got smart about doing the most good for the most number, we wouldn't be running down our future wealth and depriving ourselves of being in a strong position in the future to sustain the amount of good we might do.

My point then is, we must discriminate in what good we choose to do.
And the first point is to accept that we can't help everyone.

Regarding motor neurone disease
According to Access Economics' Migrant Fiscal Impact Model 2008, humanitarian migrants over a 20 year period are a net drain on Australian wealth, to the tune of $30,000 per migrant.

Is Australia better off using that money to accept 1 in 10,000,000 of the world's underprivileged, or to find a cure for motor neurone disease and banish it from all future generations forevermore?