Insight: Safe as Houses?

Caught most of it.

It was definitely quite one-sided.

Did not speak to any wrappers other than poster-boy Steve McKnight...and in his case mostly drew from other interviews.

Did not speak to any wrappees - happy or otherwise. I found this surprising, couldn't they find an unhappy wrappee to roll out and support their views? :)

Did speak to some people who were anti-wrapping and rolled wrapping up in the same yarn as two-tier marketing & dummy bidding.

So not the finest hour for SBS's objective journalism.

In fact, the program probably could be legally challenged for libel considering how one-sided it was.

I guess wrappers are seen by the media as ineffectual punching bags for the press...someone really has to start changing that image!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Did not speak to any wrappees - happy or otherwise. I found this surprising, couldn't they find an unhappy wrappee to roll out and support their views

They tried to talk to a wrapper that was doing a course
on the gold coast BUT he refused to be inreviewed
as far as I remember
I could not see why he did not want to
put his side across unless he had something to hide
also they tried to talk to the couple
that was wrapping a property for the lady
the story was about that lost ALL Her money
BUT THEY ALSO Refused
 
I didn't see the interview, but I did read Steve McKnights take on the segment on http://www.propertyinvesting.com/forum/.

He had many comments on the segment, including that through his contact with the journalist, he felt the journalist had very little knowledge about real estate investment.

He also commented that the main section regarding the woman ripped of by a wrapper was not actually a wrap but a lease option. She was out of pocket because when her option period ended, she was not able to obtain finace to purchase the home and was unable to exercise the option and thus lost her option fee.

The owner of the house then did a small reno and sold the property to someone else. She was apparently claiming that the owner sold 'her' property. :rolleyes:

This is only from reading other peoples comments, but I'm left wondering if the owner of this property is in a position to take legal action against SBS.

Steve's post can be found in the following thread:
http://www.propertyinvesting.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5458
 
Originally posted by ger
They tried to talk to a wrapper that was doing a course
on the gold coast BUT he refused to be inreviewed
as far as I remember
I could not see why he did not want to
put his side across unless he had something to hide
also they tried to talk to the couple
that was wrapping a property for the lady
the story was about that lost ALL Her money
BUT THEY ALSO Refused

Frankly, if I was wrapping I wouldn't be interesting in being interviewed either. Given the amount of bad press and the limited knowledge of most journalists on these topics, I simply wouldn't trust the interviewer to be fair and impartial.
 
Aceyducey,

You seem to have been the king of polls lately. Maybe we should do a couple of polls;

1. Who on the forum currently does wrapping?

2. People's opinion on whether wrapping is right or wrong.

unless of course these polls have been done before.

Damo :cool:
 
Hi There,

Why doesn't anyone ever ask my view, before they do a wrap article?

I would like to add that the segment mentioned that "wrapping" is illegal in both S.A. and W.A. Under the Conveyancing Act, installment contracts are illegal, which is a very clear law. But I don't know why they mentioned it was illegal in W.A?

At the last Vendor Finance Association meeting we had a representative from the Consumer and Employee Protection Department do a 90min presentation on credit licenses.

We also have confirmed that Ian Clyde, Chairperson of the Consumer Credit Code speaking at the next Melbourne meeting (dates yet to be confirmed). Basically we working towards improving the relationship between wrapping and the Government.

I agree some form of conduct is necessary and it is something the Association is currently working on, any input on this matter is most welcome.

I think the key issues are;

- disclosure
- independant (qualified) legal advice
- protection of buyers payments (tamper proof)
- adequate screening

The contract in the story I believe was a license to occupy contract and was tested out of court by Tim O'Dwyer and the solicitor who drew it up who was Paul McDonald-Staff. Tim dropped the case because the contract was legally drawn up. Tim didn't actually say whether their client will win, and I'm not sure Tim has charged his client's yet for his services. But it would be something to think about.

Unfortunately in some States, the tenancy tribunal can limit rent increases, this can cause problems with a standard lease-option agreement that mirrors variable rates. The solution devised to work around this limit was the license to occupy contract. The Governments are aware of this method and are concerned about its lack of regulation. I guess its something that will need to be discussed with them in the near future.

Just some thoughts...

Michael Gruber
Vendor Finance Association
President
 
Originally posted by michaelg
Why doesn't anyone ever ask my view, before they do a wrap article?
Michael Gruber
Vendor Finance Association
President

Michael,

It's because no one in the media knows who you are!!!!!

You need to build a relationship between the Vendor Finance Association and all the major media outlets.

Send out press releases, speak to editors, producers & even journalists. Educate the media about how responsible most wrappers are & frown on people who are doing the wrong thing.

Make them aware of your code of practice, your work with the government in establishing legal frameworks to protect wrappers & wrapees & explain to them what is currently in place.

To be frank, the Vendor Finance industry requires a spokesperson!!!

[Marketing hat off]

Cheers,

Aceyducey

PS: Steve McKnight's 'reply' is interesting reading see: http://www.propertyinvesting.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=2&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPIC_ID=5458
 
Hi,

Sorry just wanted to add something I forgot to mention.

It is my understanding the powers that be may use the Consumer Credit Code as a means of regulating all forms of vendor finance (lease/option license to occupy, etc).

Put simply such a move would require certain basic levels of disclosure, it would also allow consumers, in the case of the couple of the SBS segment to ask for variation of payments due to hardship.

This would mean the contract would be adjusted to allow them to cope with a short term issue (ie loss of income).

Of course if this occurs it may require some adjustments for wrappers too, ie

- if a wrappee has their contract adjusted the wrapper may need to have their underlying loan adjusted, currently wrap loans are investment loans where the consumer credit code does not apply. So there currently exist a possibility where the income is reduce and the expense stays the same, ie negative casflow.

- in terms of lease/options or license to occupy a means for the term of the option to be adjusted may need to be incorporated (thought the court would have the power to change this). Again the underlying loan would be an issue if change down dramatically.

Regards
Michael Gruber
 
Hi
I dont have anything against
any individual wrappers just the
wrapping concept
As I understand it the people who enter in
a wrapping deal is people who can not get a loan from the
financial institutions because they are not capable
of paying off the loan
HOW then are they are going to pay off the loan which is
at at least 3% more than when they were rejected by the bank

So somewhere down the line they will default.
 
Originally posted by ger
Hi
I dont have anything against
any individual wrappers just the
wrapping concept
As I understand it the people who enter in
a wrapping deal is people who can not get a loan from the
financial institutions because they are not capable
of paying off the loan
HOW then are they are going to pay off the loan which is
at at least 3% more than when they were rejected by the bank

So somewhere down the line they will default.
ger,

People get reject from getting loans for many reasons.

A few examples.

As an IT contractor on a very good rate in the early 90's, I was rejected because I could not show a five year contract.

People can get rejected because they do not have a credit record in this country- people who have not lived here long but on a high income have not had the chance to establish a rating.

People who have been through a separation may have had some rocky roads recently financially.

I'm not a wrapper myself. But it does appear to me that a lot of people with a good credit capability may not necessarily have a good credit rating.
 
Also self employed with tax effective structures that showed low income had trouble too, though that is changing with no doc loans.

Also divorce can cause bankruptcies (neither party wishing to pay off debts) or a single parent after a divorce, or a those who pay child payments have their income reduced too.

Casual workers, seasonal workers are affected too.

There are those who are commissioned base, who have a low fixed income and a large variable component, these people do not qualify for the sums they would like.

It affects any income braket, just not the lower income earners.

Then again vendor financing may have stimulated the market to offer more products, as a side effect too?

Michael
 
Rates for wraps ?

Hiya

On the issue of rates charged to people buying on wraps

if I wanted to have some cash for my business in the morning, and I walked into the NAB and had no security, If I was paying 14 % Id be happy - 18 is not uncommon.

Ta

rolf
 
Hi Michael,

I strongly agree with Acey here; you need to get yourself and the Vendor Financing Association out there, and get known.

I watched the article I felt that the whole industry was cast in a very poor light, which, as alot of us know, is not the case. Unfortunately, we're only hearing the bad stories

Wrapping has a place in the industry, and it does help alot of people, and there are alot of honest wrappers out there and a lot of happy wrappees, people need to hear about those stories just as much as they hear about the bad ones.
 
Originally posted by michaelg
It is my understanding the powers that be may use the Consumer Credit Code as a means of regulating all forms of vendor finance (lease/option license to occupy, etc).

Well, maybe I'm missing something (most likely), but Vendor Finance is one of those misnomers which, through common but innacurate useage, starts to be accepted at face value.

Vendor Finance is not finance at all.

It simply describes the process whereby someone who owns something - in this case, property - decides to sell and instead of receiving full payment of the agreed amount at settlement when the possession of the property, the right to receive rents and profits, and the acceptance of title, pass to the purchaser.

Vendor Finance means that that settlement is delayed - two years, twenty years, whatever - and in the meantime the title stays with the owner and the 'rent' paid by the purchaser imust be more than the owner's mortgage payments (if any) and must be applied in a certain way.

The Vendor does not advance funds to the Purchaser, even if the Purchaser exercises their right under the Sale of Land Act and request a 'mortgage back' where the title changes hands, the purchaser becomes the registered proprietor, and the terms, conditions etc of the payment arrangement continues as before except this is now a registered mortgage between the two parties.

'Mortgage Back' would most likely present a real problem to most 'wrappers' (people who have bought to sell in the short term) but would not present a problem to long term owners. However, the law provides that the Purchaser may request this of the vendor and that the vendor must not refuse. (Think about how this would effect you as a 'wrapper'.)

As no money is advanced / lent / choose your description, how can 'Vendor Finance' be considered 'finance'? It is terms acepted by the vendor, nothing more nor less than that.

It is simply an extended settlement period, and has been around since Adam was a boy!

Personally, I see this sort of deal as a business tactic and not strictly as 'investing in Real Estate'.

When I first started in Real Estate the Banks would not lend on vacant land at all, so we sold just about everything on Vendor's Terms. The Vendors were huge corporations, not individual owners, but we also occasionally sold a few rather crummy houses on vendor terms because the properties were in such poor condition that the Banks would not accept them as security.

The owners (vendors) would then discount (on-sell) the Contracts so that they would have the cash to go out and do it all again!

During the 1970s some huge fortunes were made - and lost - by speculative traders working in this way.

Please note that my Agency did not own any of these properties. We were independent Estate Agents and worked throughout Melbourne and all over Victoria, including coastal and rural areas, most of which are built up areas today.

However, vendor terms was not finance then and is not finance now!


Cheers

Kristine
 
For Neil Jenman's fans

I taped the SBS broadcast. I think the most memorable thing from it is Neil Jenman's tirade against 'wrappers'. There is no caution in his sweeping generalisation:

'ripping people off on the price and on the interest rate'
'out of Dicken's novel'
'prey on'
'lure on'
'preying on battlers'
and his prediction of what would happen in a few year's time: 'battlers being kicked up en masse...10,000'
'gigantic pyramid scheme'

There are poor practitioners and bad practitioners in all profession. I wonder what the proportion of wrappers fit Jenman's description. Does he owe an apology to those who do not fit his description?

My wrap experience:

8.43% variable interest rate
mark up $29,000
3 br house with carport
price $239,000 in a suburb with median price of $280,000.
I can easily sell it at $280,000 instead of providing a 'service'.

Where is the rip off? I took time to study and paid for materials before wrapping. For that interest rate, where is the Dickensian situation?

As for security, my contract specify that I will not mortgage more than the balance price of $234,000 that is less the deposit of $5000.

As for my care for the wrappee, I emphasised that there should not be default and encouraged the wrappee to take out income insurance. The main bread winner took out income protection insurance. What else should be provided that a responsible lender would have provided?

Come on Mr Jenman do not generalise. Listen to what satisfied wrappee had to say, eg Ms Jenny Boza (? spelling) in the SBS broadcast concerning her 'wrap' situation. She said that the wrapper's profit was earned from 'buying well' and on passing to the fortunate wrappee. Isn't it true in my situation above?
 
Very emotive comments from Jenman.

Emotive comments tend to give me a warning sign. Like, the argument does not stand up logical argument.

I'd be interested to see a link to what you've quoted.
 
"They tried to talk to a wrapper that was doing a course
on the gold coast BUT he refused to be inreviewed
as far as I remember
I could not see why he did not want to
put his side across unless he had something to hide"

Ger,
The wrapper you saw was Rick Otton, a very knowledgable and well known face in wrapping circles. He put out the Wrap Pack well over a year ago now and has been responsible for many successful wrap transactions in NSW.
Can you blame him for not wanting to talk to the media in this instance? I mean, look what they did to Steve McKnight! Showed only parts of his interview (which was conducted under false pretences) thus presenting half the truth. Even the journalist who interviewed Steve for the story admitted that he knew nothing about RE!

A couple of editions ago, API magazine published a lengthy and (what I considered) rather balanced article on wraps. It makes for worthwhile reading, especially to those unfamiliar with the process.

As for Jenman, well, he just loves to get his face on TV :) Think of how many extra copies of DON'T SIGN ANYTHING he can sell, with all that free publicity!.....
Just my thoughts anyway.....
 
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