Interesting view on Greece

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38482459/

This article presents an interesting viewpoint.
Some people look at 'gloom' others 'future opportunities'.
I am in the latter camp.

Its very interesting, sometimes with democratic societies, an external 'exogenous' negative factor has to come into play to push change.

In australia we had it during the early 1990's with the 'recession australia had to have'. It was painful at the time, but i believe over the longer term, it was positive for australia.

Could this be the recession greece had to have????
 
Yes interesting view point.

Australia is still having it's difficult times. We'll I've seen better times at least.

my working life started just a couple of years after the recession, i think it was 1994. At the time it seemed much more difficult than the current environment, but with the bennefit of 'harry hindsight' the investing opportunities where much better as well.

A recession is great for destroying deadwood.
Its like mother nature, we need to go through winter inorder for 'spring' to be successful. The longer we avoid winter, the harder will winter be when it finally arrives.
 
Its very interesting, sometimes with democratic societies, an external 'exogenous' negative factor has to come into play to push change.

In australia we had it during the early 1990's with the 'recession australia had to have'. It was painful at the time, but i believe over the longer term, it was positive for australia.

Could this be the recession greece had to have????


So, what is the so called 'exogenous' negative factor?

I know you wont agree with me here, as you don't yet grasp the commodities boom, nor even own commodity stocks and think it's a bubble. However I reckon the negative factor is the same factor effecting most western economies. Asia and specifically China has flogged off us a lot of our manufacturing wealth, as they work harder, smarter, and for less money. It's not coming back either.

Countries like Greece, who aren't particularly well endowed with commodity wealth like us, and have lots of inefficiencies in their economy, for example 12% of the workforce as subsidised farmers and a low retirement age etc, are in for a long downgrade in living standard.

What exactly is Greece going to do to sustain their services sector that's even bigger than ours? What do they manufacture? What do they export? They are in strife and I don't know how they will get out of it? Yet they still have services as 76% of their economy, thats even more than us.



Commodities have massive barriers to entry. You either have commodity wealth, or you don't. We have it, so we don't need manufacturing. Look at the western countries who have escaped the carnage, Australia, Canada, Norway. Commodity wealth and low populations. We can build houses over all the old industrial areas, turn our cities into service centres just serving the residents and producing nothing, and we can let in 300,000 immigrants a year, and all we need to do is keep increasing our coal and iron ore and gas exports.

What are the barriers to entry of manufacturing? You can do it anywhere, and it's who will do it the smartest and cheapest and with the least environmental restrictions. That's not Greece, nor us. Even Japan has trouble competing anymore.

What are the barriers to entry of financial services? Stuffed if I know. I reckon you could do it anywhere with a computer. Woop woop, or Bombay or Shanghai. Why is London the worlds financial capital? The worlds financial services centre could move anywhere, and it will, away from London anyway.



I reckon western countries without commodity wealth are in a bit of strife. The ones who are still good at making stuff will be fine. For example Germany. They make quality stuff. Germany exports more stuff the the US, with a way lower population. Japan still makes quality stuff. The US might be OK, They have commodity wealth, and are the worlds food basket, and they have quality companies such as boeing, john deere, caterpillar, Hewlett-packard, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Macdonalds, coke, pfizer, and their aerospace and defence industries. It will take China a while to take market share of companies like these, but it will happen eventually.

As for Australia, we can't compete anymore in manufacturing, and it don't matter. It will matter when we run out of coal and iron ore and gas, and all our farmland is dug up, but I will be dead by then, so I'm not concerned, and neither is anyone else or so it seems to me. So until we run out of commodities, we can still support our massive services sector which gives us a great standard of living and we just export our dirt and rocks. Same as Canada and Norway.

China have massive commodity wealth too. Sometimes I think they are just using ours now and saving theirs for later. They are smart and thrifty, and we are dumb and greedy.

While we keep our population low, we will have wealth and the worlds highest standard of living. The US digs up 3 times as much coal as we do but they export hardly any, as with 15 times the population they burn it all themselves. We don't particularly have massive amounts of commodities, just a low population. Same for food exports. France grows a lot more wheat then we do but with 65 million people they eat most of it themselves.



I think whats happening in the world is a major turning point, not just a temporary blip or recession. It's Asia taking over from the spoilt lazy west.


See ya's.
 
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Some great comments there TC. I'm not sure how much I agree with yet, as I have to think about it for a while. You've sure given me some material to mull over, though!

Thanks!:)
 
So, what is the so called 'exogenous' negative factor?

Sometimes in democratic societies an outside factor has to come into play. For Australia it is was the fear of becoming a 'banana republic'. For Greece, its her current problems.

Eventually the 'people' get behind fixing the problem, or at least they 'tolerate' the problem getting fixed. They might not like it, but when both sides of the main political parties start talking a similar boat, they have to vote for someone.



I know you wont agree with me here, as you don't yet grasp the commodities boom, nor even own commodity stocks and think it's a bubble. However I reckon the negative factor is the same factor effecting most western economies. Asia and specifically China has flogged off us a lot of our manufacturing wealth, as they work harder, smarter, and for less money. It's not coming back either. Countries like Greece, who aren't particularly well endowed with commodity wealth like us, and have lots of inefficiencies in their economy, for example 12% of the workforce as subsidised farmers and a low retirement age etc.

I fear there is a bubble in commodities, but i dont really know.
I cant value commodity stocks, thats why i avoid them, not out of fear.


You raise some interesting points in the rest of your post.
 
Some people look at 'gloom' others 'future opportunities'.
I am in the latter camp.

Intrinsic Value

IMO opportunities will come only when they default on their loans.

Until now I didn't believe this was possible but I'm in Greece atm and I can now picture it clearly.
With all their strikes I see a somewhat spoiled society who want things for themselves and have little regard for the rights of others.

Not everyone is like that but a large % of them are and particularly those who benefit from the status quo, i'e public servants, and other privileged groups.

Those wouldn't care less if I was inconvenienced or was stuck at an airport or run out of fuel on a motorway.
Its a pity really....
 
Until now I didn't believe this was possible but I'm in Greece atm and I can now picture it clearly.
With all their strikes I see a somewhat spoiled society who want things for themselves and have little regard for the rights of others.

....


This article sums up your thoughts BV,.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Greece-why-did-its-economy-fall-so-hard.html


By joining the euro, however, it suddenly enjoyed substantially lower interest rates, because the it was able to borrow in euros. Whereas during the 1990s, Greece had frequently had to pay out 10 per cent or more (18 per cent in 1994) to borrow money, its rate fell dramatically to 3 per cent or 2 per cent.

Ben May, Greek economist at think tank Capital Economics, said: "Their mistake was to go out, borrow money and use it to fund huge wage growth, rather than pay down its already substantial debts."

Greece went on a spending spree, allowing public sector workers' wages to nearly double over the last decade, while it continued to fund one of the most generous pension systems in the world. Workers when they come to retire usually receive a pension equating to 92 per cent of their pre-retirement salary.


Let us know what else you find over there BV.


See ya's.
 
Hey, the Greens think all cultures are equal......so we should encourage contemporary Greeks to migrate to Australia and bring their work ethic, welfare dependency, and black market ways. Australia can only be enriched by this additional injection of multiculturalism. :)

The Dept of Immigration and Citizenship should be able to class them as seeking asylum from a discriminatory European Union.

(no offense to hard working Aussie Greeks who migrated here to get away from such culture)
 
Let us know what else you find over there BV.

TC

I found a petrol station which actually had fuel so I'm on the road again. :)
I am surprised though that these people are striking in the middle of the tourist season and are trying to kill the only industry still standing.

It seems that their unions continue to underestimate the seriousness of the situation so they are collectively trying to make everyone here unemployed.

Regarding resi property, prices are lower than in Australia but the yields are very low and laws favour the tenants so Greek residential property isn't attractive.

Commercial property is a different story.
The GFC has hit many businesses and with their tourism industry sinking,
there could be opportunities to buy well located assets for business purposes or for future resale.
 
Hey, the Greens think all cultures are equal......so we should encourage contemporary Greeks to migrate to Australia and bring their work ethic, welfare dependency, and black market ways. Australia can only be enriched by this additional injection of multiculturalism. :)

The Dept of Immigration and Citizenship should be able to class them as seeking asylum from a discriminatory European Union.

(no offense to hard working Aussie Greeks who migrated here to get away from such culture)


Why make that remark ? What are you trying to say ?
What are you taking the **** out of and why ?

Most greeks migrated here, I understand, loved Greece, ti wsa the only home they knew, and felt bad about leaving. There's 100's of songs from the 20th century written about them. They left to get away fromissues,not a a culture they wanted to turn their backs on.
Evidenced by how those songs are still popular at greek gatherings today, especially oin migrant communities across the world.

Please if I've misunderstood you and you weren't being just a nasty ***** for no reason, enlighten me, I do actually listen believe it or not when the noise allows me to by not being highly offenssive.

Some of thoese greeks, both the oes I was tlking about and the ones you were talking about in Greece and the ahrdworking ones here, might have said all that above in one word, I guess you know what word that is. no offense of course
 
TC

I found a petrol station which actually had fuel so I'm on the road again. :)
I am surprised though that these people are striking in the middle of the tourist season and are trying to kill the only industry still standing.

It seems that their unions continue to underestimate the seriousness of the situation so they are collectively trying to make everyone here unemployed.

Regarding resi property, prices are lower than in Australia but the yields are very low and laws favour the tenants so Greek residential property isn't attractive.

Commercial property is a different story.
The GFC has hit many businesses and with their tourism industry sinking,
there could be opportunities to buy well located assets for business purposes or for future resale.

That's what I got told by someone recently returned.

Only he was more conservative and suggested a holiday house for yourself instead

Suggested some sort of govt incentives for investment or something too (?)
 
JC, the Greens party believe all cultures are equal....and that Australia can only be enriched by being multicultural.

I say, what are cultures equal at? are they equal in entrepreneurship, work ethic, and paying taxes? If so, why do the PIIGS need propping up by France and Germany? Why do Germans resent having to finance the softer lifestyle of Greeks?

All cultures do not offer the same material or immaterial advantages JC, despite the politically correct feel good rhetoric of the Greens.

Most Greeks in Australia may love their songs and homeland, but they left because of a lack of opportunity in an uncompetitive economy and encroaching socialism.

Culture isn't just a language, songs and dirt JC. It is the whole mindset of a people, the government they elect, their approach to eeducation, production and consumption, debt and savings, law and order, the respect and care they show for each other, their resourcefulness in looking after themselves rather than expecting a government to do everything for them, and then not paying taxes via a pervasive black market.

No offense intended if this doesn't fit your schema.
 
I still dont have one answer to the questions I posed. Did you come here just to berate Greeek people and ridicule them or what ?

plse as I said, tell me if you are doing something else, cause seriously I can't figure you out (or maybe I have as I said before and am wasting my time)
 
I know quite a few Greek people, many of whom came to Australia 40-50 years ago. They are, and have been, hard workers who have applied their brains and done well in whatever job or field the work.

The question being posed, I think, is whether the same thing would happen now.

Has their government made them soft? I know ours is certainly in the process of making us soft.
 
Why do Germans resent having to finance the softer lifestyle of Greeks?

Maybe they should ask their own banks?

It was they who pressured the German government (and the same applies to the French) to come up with a bail-out package or sorts. German banks are the third largest holders of Greek government bonds. French are the second largest. For the record Switzerland are the largest.

That doesn't take away the primary responsibilty of the Greeks and their government, but as in life, it takes two to tango.
 
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