Investing Success and Marital Health?

[Alan H]

I just read a post in another area that mentioned how some investing decisions had put quite a deal of stress on their marriage.

I also recently received a very detailed email from a friend letting us know how their marriage had relatively amicably, but sadly ended and outlined in great detail where they felt things had gone wrong. They sent the email to all their friends as a warning to not take our relationships for granted and they mentioned some of the commonplace sources of problems they felt had caused their breakdown. A couple of very young kids involved and it was a very sobering read.

Since the majority of us here are property investors, we would generally have done pretty well the last couple of years from property. Some nice financial gains and generally no reason for relationships to be hurt by all that extra equity.

The feeling for some newcomers may well be borrow, invest, borrow etc. as things can only get better........but what if it doesn't? What if the tide goes out and financial stress hits. How do you think your marital situation would be affected and how well do you keep an eye on the 'bigger picture'?

There would be some here with some heavy stories to tell how their investments in property, shares, business investments or others went bad and put a great deal of stress on the very family unit that many of these investments etc were meant to help.

What were the lessons that were learnt from these situations?

 

[Kathie]

My husband and I are definitely very much newcomers - we bought our first IP in August this year! Having said that, we have already encountered a slightly stressful budget blowout on renovating the bathroom - basically it needed to be gutted and everything (walls, floor, ceiling etc) replaced. We are yet to see the final bill but I am making sure that I have strong drink on hand for my very budget conscious husband.

Fortunately for us we are a team when it comes to investing and are both equally commited. So while it was frustrating to encounter this so early on - the bathroom is the problem not the other person.

When we began the process of purchasing our first IP we were conscious that we were entering a whole new world of things that could place stress on our relationship. Since we are very happily married and plan to stay that way we decided to approach this potential issue in the same business-like way we have approached investing.

After much research we purchased a book called 'The Exceptional Seven Percent: the nine secrets of the world's happiest couples'. This book is the fruit of many years research into what makes successful couples tick and how the rest of us can make positive changes by developing a marital imperitive; setting and achieving emotional goals; and cultivating exceptional levels of fidelity, loving, service, rapport, negotiations, gratitude, joy and sexuality.

Generally I hate relationship books (come on guys - men are from earth and so are women - get used to it! ) but I have found this one to be immensely helpful. It is practical, methodical, down to earth, provides concrete examples and real-life stories - almost the Jan Somers of marital investment!!!

For us, the reason we invest is so that we can enjoy our life together even more in years to come. It makes sense to us to put in the same conscious effort to cultivating our marriage as we do in cultivating our investment portfolio. Otherwise - what is the point?

 

[Glebe]

Here is abovementioned book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...103-1487867-1346221?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[Lplate]

Married or not, less stress comes from getting good independent advice and limiting exposure in the early stages.

A lot of the advice around is far from impartial and some of it is silly (eg buy almost any property and inflation will provide a return in the long term).

Marriage - a sense of humour and some give and take goes a long way IMHO. There have to be some areas where each can pursue individual interests.

 

[The Y-man]

Stressing out.........

The stress in our relationship came very early on - BEFORE we started investing

My wife thought investing was a good idea. I had other ideas on where the money could go (the car of course! ).

I think this came from the differing backgrounds - she having seen what poverty is like close up, me having lived all his life in the comfortable upper middle class. One was a saver, the other a spender.

It took a lot of convincing (or maybe it was the threat of no s** ) but I was eventually persuaded ("you will always drive a $20,000 car unless you invest!"..."Oh. OK then...").

Investing as an activity brought us closer as a team. It sort of achieved a happy medium, as she could get her investing done, and I still got to write big cheques (in fact bigger cheques and bigger budgets than I had ever handled for my car!).

If it all goes belly up? I think it will be hard for her, but at the end of the day we'll be back where we started in terms of money (nothing), but we would have gained a wealth of experience and knowledge.

Cheers,

The Y-man

 

[The Y-man]

Money and relationships

This book is the fruit of many years research into what makes successful couples tick and how the rest of us can make positive changes by developing a marital imperitive; setting and achieving emotional goals; and cultivating exceptional levels of fidelity, loving, service, rapport, negotiations, gratitude, joy and sexuality.

I note that money is not one of the things in the list.

My great teacher told me:

Money does not buy Happiness
Money does not buy Love.

If the relationship is not right to start with, having more money can in fact aggravate the situation.....


Cheers,

The Y-man

 

[Kathie]

I note that money is not one of the things in the list.

Hmmm....exceptional joy, exceptional sexuality, exceptional wealth - sounds good !!!

Actually, I would say that you are spot on. You need to cultivate the things that make your relationship strong and healthy. Money, delightful as it is, is not one of those things. If, however, you work on things such as rapport and negotiation then it makes it a lot easier to deal with money (or lack of it) and all those other things that can cause stress in a marriage.

Speaking for ourselves, we had a exceptionally foul year last year. I was sick most of the year and managed to pack three miscarriages into a ten month time span together with several nasty infections and a tumour. In addition our toddler began the year chopping off a finger and finished it seriously ill - with all the normal dramas in between. This also meant that the budget went way out the window and we well and truly finished spending my redundancy payout (plus some). That caused huge stress in our lives but we found that the book I mentioned above really helped to ground us in what was truly important and it gave us simple and practical tools to do this.

I would say that our relationship is 100 times stronger because we used the difficult times to grow together and not let it force us apart.

Get the foundation right and the structure on top will be strong - works for relationships as well as investing!

 

[likewow]

Money does not buy Happiness
Money does not buy Love.

Cheers,

The Y-man

You just dont know where to shop!

 

[Mrs Bird]

Kathie, what a truly inspirational story.

Mr Bird and I never fight about anything, let alone money. We both have the same values and goals in life and have promised each other never to stress, lay blame or argue over our IP's. I feel that this is a very important aspect because in the last few years everybody so it seems is a winner in the property scence but we are both aware that the boom is over and interest rates may be rising. Time to set up Plan A B and C if we are not coping financially. I feel that by having exit strategies in place, there is no need to panic and argue. We both know exactly what to do .

A few years ago we did our first reno. Well, did our relationship suffer. I had all these glourious visions of being like the girls on The Block and I thought it would be fun. It was awfull and nothing like TV. The stress it caused to my children I will never forgive myself. Even today my youngest one cries when we talk about houses.

We realised that we cannot buy and renovate therefore we had to change our strategy...life style properties. Suits us great but of course not for most people.

How many times have we thought about selling up when things go wrong. Almost every week. But we keep encouraging and reminding each other our common goals.

I feel there will be hard times ahead for property investors but you have to enter into it as a team. It is also important not to blame when things go wrong and say things like...I told you so, you didnt listen to me. For people who have not got that supportive partner then I think look else where to invest at the moment, not property. It is not worth your relationship unless both are 100% committed to make it work.

This is only my opionion but it works for my relationship and family.

Mrs Bird

 

[skater]

I posted my story in the thread about what was the turning point that changed your thinking into becoming an investor.

During our married life, my partner & I had two very difficult financial disasters, but the way we both look at life is that we have promised to stand by one another through thick & thin. We work as a team.

Essentially a marriage is a commitment that neither of us take lightly. Have there been bad times? Sure, but we work through them, & the good times outnumber the bad in the long run.

My husband is not only my lover, but also my best friend, someone who loves me unconditionally, someone I trust with my life who will hopefully be there for the rest of my life.

I think these days the breakdown of so many relationships stems from the fact that some young couples don't marry with the intent of having a life partner, instead the thinking is that if it dosen't pan out we can always divorce & try again. This to me is sad. In fact at the school where my 15yr old goes, not one of her friends parents are with their original partners.

 

[wrappack]

Money does not buy Happiness

Unfortunately, many people, both men and women seem to be caught up in the consumerism of life, and certainly were absent from their year 10 economics class in which the difference between a need (basic food, shelter, respect, love) and a want (97 foot boat, a McMansion on the waters edge, and a brand new BMW every eighteen months). In my personal opinion, people are no longer prepared to simply strive to be like the Jones's, they wish to BE the Jones's

Many men are car and boat mad, and will literally remain poor and work many additional years in their life to pay off their indulgings of youth, and the long term consequences of their actions.
Similarly, many women will indulge in the consumerism of retail therapy, and, again, not realise the massive effect this will have on their lives.

Even the poorest of Australians live in absolute luxury compared to half of the world, yet many middle class australians living middle class lives can not even consider saving for an extension/spa/motor car, instead of buying on credit.

Because, for many, money does buy happiness, albeit temporarily, until the party ends.

 

[RetroRabbit]

Money may not BUY happiness but it sure does help CULTIVATE happiness. You may have the strongest relationship in the world with your spouse and a great family, with a home, clothes and full belly but things are not happy when you have to tell your son you cannot fix the tire on his push bike because you do not have the money to buy a patch. Enough money is what I want and happiness can be nurtured more easily with it. Buying consumer goods is not what I'm talking about; I'm talking about buying time. If I am not at the job 8, 10, 12 hours a day, I have time to have fun with my loved ones - this is happiness! I have time to do that little project, or paint, or travel, or play with my little nephew in Canada - this is happiness! I am able to do this often if I have money. It's the rich who want the less well off, or working stiff Aussie battler to believe that money is evil and the route to unhappiness until we believe it! It's like the Americans believing that President Bush isn't all that bad. It's the rich who sit at their dinner table looking over Sydney Harbour enjoying their third bottle of $150 dollar Bordeaux with their kids back from Oxford for the week who say wonderingly, "I wonder what the poor are doing?"

Money will not buy you happiness but it will buy you time which is a luxury I would like to be able to afford more often.

 

[Alan H]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with 'time' retro......

Some time back I throttled back my working week so that I now don't 'work' Mondays.

On Mondays I do a few things:

1. I take my daughter to and from school. Why? Most parents know what sort of answer they get when they ask their school age son/daugher how school was after they get home rom work......... "Huh....ah ok I suppose". Taking my daughter to and from school I hear everything fresh. What she might be worried about, problems she's having, successes she's achieved. I had a father comment to me the other day that he always gets this sort of thing secondhand........if he's lucky. I meet the teachers/other parents more and generally feel more in touch with her school life. To me it helps give me more quality of life as a parent.

2. Not every week, but regularly, I go out for lunch with my wife. Especially with kids it's very easy to lose touch when you're constantly on the go. It blocks off a few hours for us where we can talk and not be bothered by a vegemite sandwich being thrown across the table or baby food being slopped onto the carpet.

3. I exercise. Not enough yet but I'll be doing more.

4. I work on my investments or try and learn something new. I don't consider myself to be incredibly bright so quite a bit of time is required to learn/absorb things.

5. etc etc.

Oops.......school time. Gotta go!

 

[quiggles]

I certainly won't be starting a poll on this one, but I'm just rereading "The Millionaire Mind" by Thomas Stanley, author of "The Millionaire Next Door".

One of his key signs for enduring wealth is a stable marriage - with no history of divorces. He notes the obvious impact of losing half or more of your wealth plus your focus in the course of a divorce upon wealth creation, but goes on to theorise that millionaires are married and stay married because they (both parties) are innately good judges of people.

I'm not so sure. I've been very lucky indeed in that regard, but I don't regard myself as the last word in judging people and motives. what do others think?

 

[househunter]

You may be right quiggles.
I can't say that I am a perfect judge of people let alone women, however I have been married for 23 years and have watched my friends marriages around me go down like dominoes. When I first met my wife I had nothing. I had a broken down old valiant with no back windscreen.
I had asked her to go out with me for dinner and when I went to her flat I was too ashamed to take her out in the car so I asked her to call a taxi. She said "How did you get here?" and I replied " In this old beat up bomb I own, but I can't take you out in that!" She said" I am going out with you for you and not for what you have". That single sentence has made me strive to provide her with whatever I can to the point that she hasn't had to work for the past 23 years.
My wife has been able to look after our children and she has done a great job. We have never had an argument over money and when I've been worried it is my wife who says "Don't worry it will be alright. You'll sort it out." I have just had the last three months off and we love spending time together looking for real estate. I am 47 and very close to retiring now and look forward to the future. I think it is absolutley paramount to have a good relationship with your partner. It can make you or break you. Don't get me wrong though, you can be successful on your own but it is fantastic to be able to share the experience.

Househunter

 

[geoffw]

I have one friend who had his first million by age 23- and was divorced soon after. He gave everything to his ex- because he knew how to get it back- the inference is that she didn't have much of an idea. So he started again from scratch- 15 (?) years later is very comfortably out of the rat race (and happily married).

 

[househunter]

Geoff,
That is a rare occurence. Getting to be a millionare by 23 I mean not getting married again. I wish I had known how to become a millionare at that age. Maybe you learn how to keep it better when you are older.

Househunter

 

[quintets]

I'm similar to Y-Man in the sense that my wife had tasted real poverty whereas I came from a comfortable middle class background...but with a twist. My father was a clergyman. He didn't make a large salary, but we talked about money even less than we talked about sex. So I had no knowledge at all about the emotional ups and downs money can bring as well as all kinds of bad spending habits along the way. Whereas my wife had hands-on experience renovating a 1 bdrm miners cottage with her mom at the age of 10!

I got dragged into property by my wife. She was persistent because she knew what to look for. After a while, the running joke was to set up the real estate agent who would always talk to me first. To keep them on the back foot, I'd say "Look, she's the brains. I'm just the money. Talk to her." When it comes to shares, it's the opposite, I'm the brains on that one and she's the budget-nazi. (her words, not mine)

Kathie's post is very inspirational. As much as my wife hates it when I buy books, I'm going to have to look that one up. I wish I could be as articulate as Kathie in how and why our relationship works as well as it does. Maybe reading will help crystallize a few things in my mind as well as identify why the marital health feeds the investing success we've had.

All I can say is, partnerships are great if both people get involved in the decision making, find complementary skills, build trust, communicate and still manage to spend real, spontaneous time with each other...outside the investing arena.



Jireh

 

[geoffw]

My father was a clergyman. He didn't make a large salary, but we talked about money even less than we talked about sex. So I had no knowledge at all about the emotional ups and downs money can bring as well as all kinds of bad spending habits along the way.

An interesting point- and I suspect it's not an experience confined to children of clerymen. Both are things which can cause big problems in a relationship- and both are things which don't often get talked about with children.

I try to teach my teenager about money, but she does not have a very good concept of how to handle it- of course, she has a great handle on how to spend it. She has a job now (at Subway of course) and maybe will get a handle on how much you have to work to get a little money. $6.90ph before super and tax is not big bikkies, especially when put next to her phone bill

 

[D.T.]

Hi Geoff,

Good on ya daughter with her first job. Did she pick up any money habits from you, like saving x%?

Hehe.