I am looking to generate income. I am on a pension. Have been advised to get a 80% line of credit loan on my house which is worth about $400k and I currently owe $45k on it. I would then withdraw $300 per week. If I do this for 7 or so years I can take out a new loan (assuming my property will double or there abouts) and keep doing the same. Was told all I need is an ABN to get a low doc loan. Does anyone think this is good idea or could suggest an alternate plan.
Investment Income
- Thread starter Maryanne
- Start date
I would strongly recommend that you get some financial advice. I would recommend Steve Navra, his website www.navra.com.au can direct you to any upcoming seminars he may be running. We live in Perth but flew to Sydney to attend a day's course which cost about $170. Even if you decide not to invest with him, his strategies can be used independently.
I'm sure other forum members can suggest other possibilities. What I liked about the Navra philosophy was it was a way of turning the equity in a property into a tax deductible income stream. If you simply draw down funds from a line of credit, the interest you pay is NOT tax deductible as it is for personal purposes. The Navra strategy solves this problem. Good Luck
I'm sure other forum members can suggest other possibilities. What I liked about the Navra philosophy was it was a way of turning the equity in a property into a tax deductible income stream. If you simply draw down funds from a line of credit, the interest you pay is NOT tax deductible as it is for personal purposes. The Navra strategy solves this problem. Good Luck
Hi all,
Jesskaye101, I take offence at this type of "advice" from people. If you know of an option that Maryanne could do then post it, don't just advertise a course.
Maryanne is a pensioner, which I assume means over 65. Not really the time of life where one can undertake a strategy that refuses to acknowledge the risk of loss/lack of performance in different market conditions to what we are now having.
Remember the older we all get the less risk we want because we have less time to make up for any serious investing 'mistakes'.
Please do not just suggest a course if you do not understand it. If you do understand the mechanism for funding Maryanne's future then post it.
bye
P.S.
Maryanne, What you propose does not do a lot for me as I am fairly risk adverse. If it was me in your situation I would look at downsizing my property and using the money from the sale of the PPOR for purchasing a unit, with the balance to pay off the mortgage and hopefully have some funds for lifestyle on top of that. Of course you have not really given enough information about your circumstances for anything suggested here to be meaningful.
Jesskaye101, I take offence at this type of "advice" from people. If you know of an option that Maryanne could do then post it, don't just advertise a course.
Maryanne is a pensioner, which I assume means over 65. Not really the time of life where one can undertake a strategy that refuses to acknowledge the risk of loss/lack of performance in different market conditions to what we are now having.
Remember the older we all get the less risk we want because we have less time to make up for any serious investing 'mistakes'.
Please do not just suggest a course if you do not understand it. If you do understand the mechanism for funding Maryanne's future then post it.
bye
P.S.
Maryanne, What you propose does not do a lot for me as I am fairly risk adverse. If it was me in your situation I would look at downsizing my property and using the money from the sale of the PPOR for purchasing a unit, with the balance to pay off the mortgage and hopefully have some funds for lifestyle on top of that. Of course you have not really given enough information about your circumstances for anything suggested here to be meaningful.
Maryanne,
This type of strategy is called living of equity and it relies on continual growth of your property portfolio and a large equity base at the start. I personally would not like to use this strategy unless I had at least $2mil in equity to start with.
Do a search of loe and you will find many threads on it.
Unfortunately from what you have said I don't think it will be suitable for you.
Perhaps you could look at buying some high yielding shares to provide an income stream or you could simply lower your living expenses.
Cheers Pablo.
This type of strategy is called living of equity and it relies on continual growth of your property portfolio and a large equity base at the start. I personally would not like to use this strategy unless I had at least $2mil in equity to start with.
Do a search of loe and you will find many threads on it.
Unfortunately from what you have said I don't think it will be suitable for you.
Perhaps you could look at buying some high yielding shares to provide an income stream or you could simply lower your living expenses.
Cheers Pablo.
Hi Maryanne
(Bill, I'm with you on this one!)
Maryanne, whoever gave you this 'advice' would perhaps unwittingly put you in an insidious position.
Very few conventional loan products do not require monthly payments. Yes, I appreciate that some Lines of Credit provide that the interest can be capitalised to the loan provided that the account is 'in the black', that is, is operating within it's credit limit.
However, run your slide rule over the equation and you will see that the idea of using a Line of Credit is not necessarily appropriate if you are indeed over 65 and on the pension.
For starters, Centrelink may treat the money as 'income' and reduce your benefits. I know of one 86 year old gentleman who took out a Line of Credit to assist his son with some debts, and now the older man has to pay $600 per month on the loan plus Centrelink has reduced his benefit by $80 per fortnight as they have included the fully drawn balance of the loan as an asset.
So tread carefully.
Why not make an appointment with Centrelink and have a chat with one of their qualified advisers. Once you are really sure of what you want to do, and of how Centrelink would treat the situation, then you may care to explore products such as the Reverse Mortgages which are very tightly controlled mortgage products specifically designed for older people who are 'asset rich but cash poor'.
Lines of Credit have a time and a place. Before you make any decisions, talk to someone who will have no benefit from your decision.
Good luck. You have worked hard for your house, maybe it is time that the house returned the favour.
But do it properly and do it safely.
Cheers
Kristine
You know the jury is still out on whether a 2.4 mill portfolio with 2 mill in debt solves any problems. When there are no storms all boats tend to float well.I would strongly recommend that you get some financial advice. I would recommend Steve Navra, his website www.navra.com.au can direct you to any upcoming seminars he may be running. We live in Perth but flew to Sydney to attend a day's course which cost about $170. Even if you decide not to invest with him, his strategies can be used independently.
I'm sure other forum members can suggest other possibilities. What I liked about the Navra philosophy was it was a way of turning the equity in a property into a tax deductible income stream. If you simply draw down funds from a line of credit, the interest you pay is NOT tax deductible as it is for personal purposes. The Navra strategy solves this problem. Good Luck
It's a classic swan problem, you only need to see one black swan to prove the theory that 'all swans are white' false. I think you will only need one credit crunch to stress test this approach, something we really haven't had for 15 years or so in this country.
It's one way to approach wealth creation with it's own peculiar set or risks (and rewards!), not a one size fits all approach and certainly something to be very wary of for someone without a robust income source such as a job to fall back on.
Could you rent out a room or 2?
Or is that too low-tech and obvious?
(it might be for some people here)
M
I'm with Kristine and Bill. I think this is poor advice.
Sadly, if you're over 65 (an assumption) and without savings (another) you have little wriggle room.
If you were comfortable in the share market I could suggest a better, but similar, plan but I am not licenced to do so and doubt it's suitability anyway.
With the amount of info given I can think of little more than refinancing the house to reduce weekly outgoings and putting any savings/super (assuming only a modest amount) in something like the Commonwealth Bank PERLs which pay a safe dividend every qtr (note that this is an example of a product type only. The details were so you could START your research there) which will eke out your pension.
I wish I could be more positive.
Regards..... Fish.
Sadly, if you're over 65 (an assumption) and without savings (another) you have little wriggle room.
If you were comfortable in the share market I could suggest a better, but similar, plan but I am not licenced to do so and doubt it's suitability anyway.
With the amount of info given I can think of little more than refinancing the house to reduce weekly outgoings and putting any savings/super (assuming only a modest amount) in something like the Commonwealth Bank PERLs which pay a safe dividend every qtr (note that this is an example of a product type only. The details were so you could START your research there) which will eke out your pension.
I wish I could be more positive.
Regards..... Fish.
Who advised you Maryanne? Was it someone flogging loans?
I always get uncomfortable when people make plans on the assumption that 'property doubles every 7 years'.
Averaged out over time this might be the case for the majority of properties (and many will exceed this). But plenty of properties will go for a seven year period and not budge much in price.
My previous PPOR doubled in 4 years. I'd like to think the PPOR I bought in 2002 will be worth double what I paid the year after next, but I somehow doubt it.
Scott
I always get uncomfortable when people make plans on the assumption that 'property doubles every 7 years'.
Averaged out over time this might be the case for the majority of properties (and many will exceed this). But plenty of properties will go for a seven year period and not budge much in price.
My previous PPOR doubled in 4 years. I'd like to think the PPOR I bought in 2002 will be worth double what I paid the year after next, but I somehow doubt it.
Scott
I wasn't going to say anything on this one, but I just can't resist.
None of us are in a position to make any considered comment on whether or not the suggested strategy is appropriate or inappropriate for Maryanne. The snide suggestions that perhaps the person advising this approach has some self-interest which conflicts with Maryanne's best interests are just unfounded speculation. Even if that person does receive a commission - does that necessarily mean that it's not appropriate for Maryanne? Of course not!
Deriding JessKaye101's suggestion is unfair. No doubt it was made in good faith with a view to try to help Maryanne. Something several other people on the thread have posted but failed to do.
As Bill has noted, we don't know enough about her circumstances and risk tolerance to make any sensible assessment. Even Bill was prepared to admit he was assuming that it was the age pension...there are a variety of different pensions available.
Kristine is correct that considering the impact on social security benefits is relevant...but if you can take a small step backwards in "benefits" to make a giant leap forward in your cashflow and net worth then I think that's a fair trade off.
I don't mean to be intolerant here, but I just can't stand the small minded poverty-mentality thinking that says that says "Oh no, I couldn't possibly do something positive and take responsibility for my financial position - I'd lose $x of my pension". For goodness sake! It's that sort of thinking that leaves you reliant on the age pension in the first place (disability pensions are a different issue).
Now those may seem like harsh insensitive words, but we're all responsible (for better or worse) for our financial circumstances. Accident and illness aside, from a financial perspective I think we all end up pretty much where we deserve to...there are plenty of examples of people (on this forum and elsewhere) who have managed to provide a very comfortable nest egg for themselves despite being on a low income/single parent etc etc.
So enough of my ranting. What should Maryanne do?
Seek professional advice. Probably from several sources. Just like you'd get a 2nd opinion from medical practitioners about very serious conditions. Consider all the advice, weigh it up and make a choice she's comfortable with. Implement it and review in due course to confirm it's meeting her objectives.
Should Maryanne consult with, or have her advisers consider, social security issues? Of course...but with great respect Kristine...if someone is getting their financial advice from Centrelink then there's something VERY wrong (Don't get me wrong, there are no doubt some great people in Centrelink...but I suspect 99.9% of them aren't particularly wealthy - why would you put up with all the public service @#$! if you were? ).
As Kristine noted...Maryanne has worked hard to pay down the debt on her house. Isn't it time the house starting giving back a little?
Downsizing by selling the family home and buying an apartment is often suggested as a good option here. I disagree.
Of the people I've spoken to at that stage in their lives, most were very attached to not so much the house, but to the community where they live (and have lived for 30-40-50 years etc) and to the ability to host their extended family, grandkids etc in the house. Also, from a financial perspective, suddenly coming into that capital gains tax free cash windfall from selling the house and buying a typically cheaper and much smaller unit can be dangerous. If the person is not used to dealing with large sums of money it can be quickly spent/given away and then they're back where they started with little income but a much smaller home/asset!
I think sometimes parents (particularly where one parent has recently died) can be pressured by their kids to sell up so the kids can get their grubby hands on some of that windfall...(only for the grandkiddies of course ).
Just wanted to try to rebalance the discussion.
All the best Maryanne
Cheers
N.
None of us are in a position to make any considered comment on whether or not the suggested strategy is appropriate or inappropriate for Maryanne. The snide suggestions that perhaps the person advising this approach has some self-interest which conflicts with Maryanne's best interests are just unfounded speculation. Even if that person does receive a commission - does that necessarily mean that it's not appropriate for Maryanne? Of course not!
Deriding JessKaye101's suggestion is unfair. No doubt it was made in good faith with a view to try to help Maryanne. Something several other people on the thread have posted but failed to do.
As Bill has noted, we don't know enough about her circumstances and risk tolerance to make any sensible assessment. Even Bill was prepared to admit he was assuming that it was the age pension...there are a variety of different pensions available.
Kristine is correct that considering the impact on social security benefits is relevant...but if you can take a small step backwards in "benefits" to make a giant leap forward in your cashflow and net worth then I think that's a fair trade off.
I don't mean to be intolerant here, but I just can't stand the small minded poverty-mentality thinking that says that says "Oh no, I couldn't possibly do something positive and take responsibility for my financial position - I'd lose $x of my pension". For goodness sake! It's that sort of thinking that leaves you reliant on the age pension in the first place (disability pensions are a different issue).
Now those may seem like harsh insensitive words, but we're all responsible (for better or worse) for our financial circumstances. Accident and illness aside, from a financial perspective I think we all end up pretty much where we deserve to...there are plenty of examples of people (on this forum and elsewhere) who have managed to provide a very comfortable nest egg for themselves despite being on a low income/single parent etc etc.
So enough of my ranting. What should Maryanne do?
Seek professional advice. Probably from several sources. Just like you'd get a 2nd opinion from medical practitioners about very serious conditions. Consider all the advice, weigh it up and make a choice she's comfortable with. Implement it and review in due course to confirm it's meeting her objectives.
Should Maryanne consult with, or have her advisers consider, social security issues? Of course...but with great respect Kristine...if someone is getting their financial advice from Centrelink then there's something VERY wrong
(Don't get me wrong, there are no doubt some great people in Centrelink...but I suspect 99.9% of them aren't particularly wealthy - why would you put up with all the public service @#$! if you were? ).As Kristine noted...Maryanne has worked hard to pay down the debt on her house. Isn't it time the house starting giving back a little?
Downsizing by selling the family home and buying an apartment is often suggested as a good option here. I disagree.
Of the people I've spoken to at that stage in their lives, most were very attached to not so much the house, but to the community where they live (and have lived for 30-40-50 years etc) and to the ability to host their extended family, grandkids etc in the house. Also, from a financial perspective, suddenly coming into that capital gains tax free cash windfall from selling the house and buying a typically cheaper and much smaller unit can be dangerous. If the person is not used to dealing with large sums of money it can be quickly spent/given away and then they're back where they started with little income but a much smaller home/asset!
I think sometimes parents (particularly where one parent has recently died) can be pressured by their kids to sell up so the kids can get their grubby hands on some of that windfall...(only for the grandkiddies of course
).Just wanted to try to rebalance the discussion.
All the best Maryanne
Cheers
N.
Whilst I also agree that perhaps Centrelink has its own barrow to push, my mother-in-law went to them to try to keep as much pension as she could, despite her late husband doing his own will and really making a mess of it, and leaving her in a situation with little leeway to make her own decisions (even after his death).
To his or her credit, the person helping her was not trying to sell her anything (a problem with most financial planners - do they really have YOUR best interests at heart, or THEIR commission). This Centrelink person did some good "what if" type scenarios and helped her to keep the maximum benefit in her position.
Perhaps she was just lucky to strike a compassionate, fair Centrelink adviser, but my advice would be to get some financial advice from a "fee for service" adviser who should not be pushing a product for its commission and then take that advice to Centrelink to get the heads up on whether it is the way to go.
I also agree that without knowing what type of pension Maryanne is on, it is tricky to give advice. She could well be quite young and have to look after her financial wellbeing for many years.
Wylie
To his or her credit, the person helping her was not trying to sell her anything (a problem with most financial planners - do they really have YOUR best interests at heart, or THEIR commission). This Centrelink person did some good "what if" type scenarios and helped her to keep the maximum benefit in her position.
Perhaps she was just lucky to strike a compassionate, fair Centrelink adviser, but my advice would be to get some financial advice from a "fee for service" adviser who should not be pushing a product for its commission and then take that advice to Centrelink to get the heads up on whether it is the way to go.
I also agree that without knowing what type of pension Maryanne is on, it is tricky to give advice. She could well be quite young and have to look after her financial wellbeing for many years.
Wylie
There are some experienced good advisors at Centrelink. What they are good at is looking at various scenarios and advising what the effect on your benefits would be. If you are on a pension this is a worthwhile exercise to go through becuase at least then you can fully take into account the consequences of your strategies and see which one gives you the best overall benefit.
Living on an income higher than a full pension is the ideal scaenario but not one that all can achieve. Some live in the grey area with part pension and part investments.
Living on an income higher than a full pension is the ideal scaenario but not one that all can achieve. Some live in the grey area with part pension and part investments.
Absolutely.
I'm reminded of the saying 'Never cross a river that is on average 4 feet deep'
Nigel
A good post. Yes, I realise that it's not completely unbiased, as I know there is at least some sort of relationship between you and Steve (in InvestEd)- but taking that into account, I still think that you've provided a fair counter viewpoint.
Jesskaye101 recommended a financial advisor. I think that's a good idea. But I'd be looking at an advisor whose integrity I trusted. I'd put Stev Navra in that category.
When I went to him several years ago, his advice was, "You're doing all the right things. I can't recommend anything for you at present".
That was advice that I respect, as he wasn't trying to sell me things which were not appropriate.
As to the course? It's interesting, and well worth investigating- especially if you have years down your sleeve, as people have suggested.
Alternative strategies? Well, nobody here is even sure what sort of pension you have. That can be extremely important.
Maryanne, as much as we'd like to help, you're asking big questions without knowing very much of your situation. I'd ignore what anybody else in here is saying (including myself ) and see a professionnal.
Oh yes, as you're asking a property investment forum- ask a professional who knows a little about property. Say Steve Navra or Freeman Fox (Peter Spann is is a forum member).
And if your property is in WA- don't depend on getting the same growth that you've had recently. It may (or may not) hgappen.
A good post. Yes, I realise that it's not completely unbiased, as I know there is at least some sort of relationship between you and Steve (in InvestEd)- but taking that into account, I still think that you've provided a fair counter viewpoint.
Jesskaye101 recommended a financial advisor. I think that's a good idea. But I'd be looking at an advisor whose integrity I trusted. I'd put Stev Navra in that category.
When I went to him several years ago, his advice was, "You're doing all the right things. I can't recommend anything for you at present".
That was advice that I respect, as he wasn't trying to sell me things which were not appropriate.
As to the course? It's interesting, and well worth investigating- especially if you have years down your sleeve, as people have suggested.
Alternative strategies? Well, nobody here is even sure what sort of pension you have. That can be extremely important.
Maryanne, as much as we'd like to help, you're asking big questions without knowing very much of your situation. I'd ignore what anybody else in here is saying (including myself
) and see a professionnal.Oh yes, as you're asking a property investment forum- ask a professional who knows a little about property. Say Steve Navra or Freeman Fox (Peter Spann is is a forum member).
And if your property is in WA- don't depend on getting the same growth that you've had recently. It may (or may not) hgappen.
I would definitely agree that leveraging the likes of 2.4 mil in assets against 2.0 mil debts is very high. Personally I'd feel very reticient having that kind of LVR. Our LVR is under 50% and yes, we've dove tailed on the Perth property boom to be in a good position so there was an element of luck in the time frame - we anticipated we'd be in this position in 15 years, not four !!
That said, we take a very conservative longer term view of property price movements. I never imagined 4 years ago when we started with $20k and one IP (we were renting ourselves at the time) that today, we'd be trying a few creative strategies. I wouldn't begin to try and explain them here. One, I'm not a financial adviser and second, my situation is not necessarily the same as another person's. That's not to say that we can't suggest that someone open a box or a door and look into something as a recommendation. It is their choice to consider it or not and I sincerely apologise if I've offended any one with my comments, they were said in good faith. I certainly am not here to spruik anything.
But I'm very glad that people posted about Steve Navra on this forum because that is how I found out about him. The first thing he said at his seminar was 'you are here because someone referred you, I don't advertise'. The second thing: he personally invests in property and most financial advisers I have met are anti-property.
Maryanne sounds like she's in a similar position to my Mother. My Mother has property assets and little cash flow. She's decided to try a few things that may or may not come to fruition (yes there are storms and all sorts of multi coloured swans out there). But her LVR drawings are conservative.
I am not going to live my life in fear of interest rate movements. And I remember the 18% interest days as an 18 year old when I bought my first block of land. If it all goes bellyup and I lose the lot I'm no worse off than I was 4 years ago when I was renting and as Goethe says 'whatever you do or dream you can do, begin...boldness has magic, power and genius in it'. I've failed big time at property in my 20s and ditto with the stockmarket. But that hasn't stopped me from getting back into action and in the future it won't either.
Then again, I am younger than my Mother and presumably Maryanne and I have time on my side. As I said in my previous post and as others have reiterated, getting professional advice is a great start.
Have a wonderful day everyone.
That said, we take a very conservative longer term view of property price movements. I never imagined 4 years ago when we started with $20k and one IP (we were renting ourselves at the time) that today, we'd be trying a few creative strategies. I wouldn't begin to try and explain them here. One, I'm not a financial adviser and second, my situation is not necessarily the same as another person's. That's not to say that we can't suggest that someone open a box or a door and look into something as a recommendation. It is their choice to consider it or not and I sincerely apologise if I've offended any one with my comments, they were said in good faith. I certainly am not here to spruik anything.
But I'm very glad that people posted about Steve Navra on this forum because that is how I found out about him. The first thing he said at his seminar was 'you are here because someone referred you, I don't advertise'. The second thing: he personally invests in property and most financial advisers I have met are anti-property.
Maryanne sounds like she's in a similar position to my Mother. My Mother has property assets and little cash flow. She's decided to try a few things that may or may not come to fruition (yes there are storms and all sorts of multi coloured swans out there). But her LVR drawings are conservative.
I am not going to live my life in fear of interest rate movements. And I remember the 18% interest days as an 18 year old when I bought my first block of land. If it all goes bellyup and I lose the lot I'm no worse off than I was 4 years ago when I was renting and as Goethe says 'whatever you do or dream you can do, begin...boldness has magic, power and genius in it'. I've failed big time at property in my 20s and ditto with the stockmarket. But that hasn't stopped me from getting back into action and in the future it won't either.
Then again, I am younger than my Mother and presumably Maryanne and I have time on my side. As I said in my previous post and as others have reiterated, getting professional advice is a great start.
Have a wonderful day everyone.
Hi all,
Can I point Maryanne to the following thread...
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19649&highlight=navra
In it the discussion of living off equity in retirement is discussed, it is a long read and the 'chapters' of Steve Navra's 'book' have been deleted.
Even so, in 245 posts the concept of risk is not fully addressed. Some argue that risk is non existent with this method, and any alternative is just doom and gloom.
I'll also note that Maryanne's situation is not even closely addressed in the entire thread.
Having just spent a couple of hours rereading that thread, I notice that there are several very pertinent questions asked of Steve Navra that were not answered.
Personally I prefer to take the recommendations and experiences of a Kiethj or a Seechange over anyone who has an investment to sell me.
bye
Can I point Maryanne to the following thread...
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19649&highlight=navra
In it the discussion of living off equity in retirement is discussed, it is a long read and the 'chapters' of Steve Navra's 'book' have been deleted.
Even so, in 245 posts the concept of risk is not fully addressed. Some argue that risk is non existent with this method, and any alternative is just doom and gloom.
I'll also note that Maryanne's situation is not even closely addressed in the entire thread.
Having just spent a couple of hours rereading that thread, I notice that there are several very pertinent questions asked of Steve Navra that were not answered.
Personally I prefer to take the recommendations and experiences of a Kiethj or a Seechange over anyone who has an investment to sell me.
bye
I would read page 1, then go right to the end, page 17 (it's pretty dramatic stuff, but I won't spoil the ending for you so check it out yourself), then decide whether you really want to read pages 2-16 - I didn't bother
!GSJ
In a reread of that thread, I can see that it was killed by one Bill.L
A lot of useful information was lost as a result.
Steve Navra no longer chooses to contribute.
While I understand that Bill is trying to get useful answers- I cannot see that he offers any good alternatives or answers. All I can see is looking at all the negatives and using those against somebody else. Anybody who followed the advice given two years ago would have been worse off as a result.
And in other threads- I can see that Bill is also very negative against other people who are very positive, go getters, and achievers.
Like Peter Spann.
I can see why Bill doesn't like people who make promises they can't achieve.
But I can't see what he offers as an alternative. And, looking at history in the last two years (a limited time frame, I admit), I can't see that he was correct.
I don't agree with some of your conclusions.
Nobody forced Steve to withdraw his posts. In fact I still don't understand why that was a good idea for anyone. I can fully understand why people like Spann and Navra would chose not to participate in online forums though, it couldn't seem like a very good risk reward scenario when you are in their position.
I remember thinking at the time that Bill was not nearly diplomatic enough in his questioning, I still think that but you know it's really hard to tell sometimes with written communication. What might seem vigorous but acceptable in face to face communication can come over as downright rude online.
As to whether Bill offers any alternatives I will leave that up to him to answer.
The idea that you can take the results of the last two years as a vindication of the LOE idea as discussed is simply a confusion of process and outcome. Pick something that hasn't done well in the last two years. I can be more expansive here both on a property and shares front (something I have made plenty of mistakes myself in over the last 2 years) but perhaps that's appropriate for a LOE thread Mark 3!?
Steve was a real thinker and in my opinion an educator with good intentions, so I miss reading his thoughts online as well!
