investment properties

[kph]

I equate it to the karratha,port kembla,mt isa,etc the are not the holiday areas but people go there to do business and need a bed for the night,
sorry kp there is not alot of glitter in this area
and life in a lot of parts of the world has got a different value to ours but you still look at these markets or they would never be able to trade out of there current position.
sorry nigel if this has hyjacked your post if you wish post question
post in
where to buy.
china and who's there maybe a better place.

Hey Gross, I wasn't having a personal sledge at you....

My comment was more in relation to China both from my personal experience of the place, and the experience of two ppl that I know who have done business there.

One was a young investment banker based in Hong Kong who teamed up with some Chinese partners in a chain of tea houses, and did his dough ( and probably some of the banks as well...)
and the other was a Chinese gentleman who resides in Aus but refuses to go back to China for fear of his life.
He has ( had) a steel factory on the mainland and it was syphoned dry to the tune of a million plus, and when he went back to try and recover the dosh, he was told his life was in danger if he kept digging around trying to recover his money. ( I guess it wasn't his anymore !)

So he cut his losses and hasn't been back since.

My experience was as an importer and I can only conclude that as long as you are buying, and the goods are flowing this way, with the cash flowing the other way, you're safe. If you're investing cash in the place, it has a habit of disappearing ( ** poof ** ) like magic **

Gross, you make enough money in Australia with your projects, why go chase the red dragon for a few extra mill. when you can make enough over here ??

kp

 

[see_change]

Under my own definition, I'm ok. Under yours, I'm a moral black hole. I recognise why you think I'm unethical, and I respect your point of view, but I don't feel any better or worse because of your opinion. That's the fun in discussing different points of view.

I just don't feel much sympathy for those other than those I know and love (family, friends, etc). I applaud people when they succeed, but I have little sympathy for those who aren't as well off (whether it's their fault or not). I believe that we take responsibility for everything that we do, and there are no excuses in life.

I make no excuses for what I am. I know that I'm able to be the way I am because most people are NOT like me (more power to them). I admire charitable people but have no desire to join them. In my case a lot of the evil (gap between rich and poor, cheap production in China leading to cheaper goods, etc) benefits me since I'm on the winning side.
Alex

I also believe we have to take responsibility for our own actions, but my experience has been that if we take actions with no regards on how our actions impact on other people eventually our actions come back to haunt us. You'll find that people with a stronger since of what is right and wrong will no want to deal with you . The only people who want to work with you are those who share your same moral values , and what is their priority ??

It's certainly not you......

My experience in life is that you reap as you sow.

Most of the very wealthy people I've read about seem to have a very strong sense of what is right / ethical and what is wrong. There are people on this forum who have stepped over the line and I know as a result there are many people who will not have any dealings with them. I know I don't.

See Change

 

[peteb]

a lot of the very wealthy have a strong view on what is morally right AFTER they become very wealthy !

 

[RichardC]

a lot of the very wealthy have a strong view on what is morally right AFTER they become very wealthy !

Don't you just love pop stars and Hollywood actors taking the high moral ground?

 

[geoffw]

Don't you just love pop stars and Hollywood actors taking the high moral ground?

And movie stars also seem to be automatically well qualified to comment on politics as well

 

[RichardC]

To invest in companies that you know to practice unethical practices , is condoing it . Where else do they get the money to continue ?

By your definition SC, I'm amoral. While I don't like being called so, I can live with it.

By my definition half the posters on this forum exhibit similar morality in their greed and their approach to wealth creation. Such is life.

I have a particular concern with the quoted text. Should I not invest in BHP? They certainly have a cupboard full of skeletons. What about HVN? They happily buy up all that cheap stuff made with the blood and sweat of enslaved people and bank a nice profit. Obviously Nike is a no no.

My shining armour is still rusting in the shed.

 

[grossreal]

hi kp
interesting question
couple of reasons.
1. I like to deal and as this country is not only one of the fastest growing they are some of the sharpest pencils in the bag of business and I like that enviroment.
2. yes there are very good opportunities here and am trying to gain a couple if possible but you must look out side your own back yard if you are going to advance forward for me its a case of taking a very small few steps into a different market.
3. the challenge and as you know I like a challenge
I evaluate a market and if that market meets my bench marks then I get interested in that market.
4. I do understand a fare bit about this market as this is my second bit at this cherry and the first was too large for most of the Australian business at that time to grasp
and understanding the reasons why people lose money in this market gives you the insight to modify your entry system to take into account those failures,
for people to go into this market and think that because its a hot market you are going to make money is not only silly but very naive and I am neither
with any business venture you must mitigate your possible losses and have a way of securing your possible gains and from your post your friend may have done neither.
with regard to the steel person he is one of about 35,000 middle managers of guangdong construction company all who would wish to leave china and never return but if I can give them a vehicle that they can invest in outside their country and which then invests in the construction projects that there company does.
they are a going to do
A better job for me
B a cheaper job or keep the cost down
and c which is most important complete the job and make sure its a success as they have a vested interest in doing so.
I am invest no money in china but I am investing equity and unfortunatly for the crooks of this world its a little bit harder to steal equity.
there are always people that will have bad stories with any market or investment
one mans loss is another mans gain
but what you need to understand is why they made the loss and work out your structure or business idea to not go down that pot hole.
as you all are aware there is no such investment as 100% risk free( even putting it under your bed theres the guys thru the window who nick it)
it risk against return and mitigated risk management.
I am not on the dole that is correct and yes my structure does have reasonable investments but this little project is for people that wish to go out side there comfort zone and at the end of the day as you kp understand I don't tell people to invest nor do I even recommend people invest
I tell people this is what I am investing in and this one I am and its up to them to decide.
if I was to say to you that I was looking at investing in karratha before anything was there including roads you would have had the same reasons not to invest as there are other places that you can make money
well this is true but as a developer I look at an area or market and can envisage what could, would, or can be put there and make my call on that.
if I showed you a video of karratha now but showed you then WHEN IT WAS BARE LAND
I would have to fight off the investors.
well look at the coalinvestigator or any of the heavy metal web site for heavy metal investments and this area juye shandgong area is that karratha of china and I am not telling you anything you can't find out yourself.
the only difference is thats there and your here.
good to hear from you.
oh and sea change I have lots of investor that I wouldn't go to the pub for a beer with but I still do business with them and they ahve told me and people that deal with me that they hate my guts and even one would love to see my burial site with me in it but they still deal with me.
and there corporate bank managers
and I have succeded in even having one part of an over seas goverment hating me and the other loving what I do its all relative
but thats business
and I like to be a duck

 

[RichardC]

I thought it was Nigel's thread about investing in Texas....

( Yee Haaaaa....)

kp

I opened the thread today to mention an article on US realestate in CNN today
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/03/news/economy/realestateguide_fortune/index.htm
and all I found was a morality debate.

 

[kph]

And movie stars also seem to be automatically well qualified to comment on politics as well

No wonder when you see the quality of politicians from la la land.

Sometimes hard to differentialte between the two....
Every actor want to be a politician and every pollie wants to be a star...

kp

 

[zig]

Fearful of sharks

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on a forum.
Typing is very slow and spelling etc very average.
This is mainly a test to see if I can get it right.

However I have recently started reading up on investment properties again, searching the internet and reading books.

It appears to me, that everything I read is bait to lure me into expensive courses, books and software, or "opportunities" to buy through people who seem to have a lot more to gain than their prey.

Some of the most incredible stories I have read seem to be from the recent boom period and these people are now offering expensive advice to the inexperienced.

Am I too cynical?

Where should I look for advice?

PS
I have one negatively geared investment property which I bought about 3 yrs ago as an eventual result of reading a couple of Jan's books.

 

[kph]

Well stick around here, and read, read, read, past and current threads & topics...

At least its FREE....

 

[grossreal]

hi zig
good idea on some of the book people and seminars
it does do well to read but the most important part is not reading but understanding what different people are involved in
and ha your english can't be as bad as mine.
remember as a wise nearly as old as me real estate person says don't sign anything
he's right you just have to add
unless you understand what your signing and if you don't find some one external to you who does.

 

[alexlee]

I also believe we have to take responsibility for our own actions, but my experience has been that if we take actions with no regards on how our actions impact on other people eventually our actions come back to haunt us. You'll find that people with a stronger since of what is right and wrong will no want to deal with you . The only people who want to work with you are those who share your same moral values , and what is their priority ??

My experience in life is that you reap as you sow.

Most of the very wealthy people I've read about seem to have a very strong sense of what is right / ethical and what is wrong. There are people on this forum who have stepped over the line and I know as a result there are many people who will not have any dealings with them. I know I don't.

See Change

I think a lot of those articles are biased. Using The Millionaire Next Door as an example, say you're a middle aged successful business owner. You have a few kids, maybe grandkids, employees and status in the community. Someone asks for your opinion on how to succeed in life. You might have done a few dodgy things in the past, especially when you first started out. Are you really going to air all your skeletons and jeapordise your reputation? For what? Those guys have pretty much convinced themselves that they're ethical and bad things they did (or are doing) are just necessary evils and don't feel they have to disclose ('I earned my success!')

In the same way, all corporate mission statements talk about how ethical and good they are, but in reality......

The articles where the subject does NOT comment tend to have a lot more skeletons. Packer and Murdoch (our more famous billionaires) aren't exactly known for being nice people.

I don't want to deal with people with a strong sense of right and wrong. Moral actions are hard to predict. If someone is profit driven, I can align their interests to mine so that to screw me would be to screw themselves. I mistrust people who will do something just on principle. I particularly mistrust people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for principles, because I have no idea what they might do next. As you said, I would most want to deal with a person with similar values to me: profit motive within the limits of the law, with a respect for business and private relationships.

For example, would you use an accountant who is so ethical that he disallows your trip to inspect your IP because you also happened to do some private stuff? Or thinks that since we investors 'make so much money off the battlers' that we should pay more than our share of tax and excludes negative gearing from your tax return?
Alex

 

[alexlee]

The only people who want to work with you are those who share your same moral values , and what is their priority ??
See Change

Using a political analogy, I think it's easier to deal with corrupt politicians (by that I mean US and Australia level corrupt, not African or North Korean corrupt) than fanatics. Fanatics are hard to predict. Slightly corrupt politicians are much easier to deal with, in part because I know how they think.

And yes, I do think I'm corrupt. Just a touch. Traded my high horse for an IP!
Alex

 

[grossreal]

hi all
this may well be off this post but when I sit at a meeting and we are talking business and my last one was on china and ran for 6 hours
I can't remember any one asking me my networth,my ideas on morality or wheather I would invest in a cigarette company
its business and I am a little way swayed to alex in his view
for me to get involved in a project in the first place I have decided to get involved and then morality for me is not an issue as I have decided.
yes ex kerry and now james have a few things in the cupboard and a couple of people that I deal with are very close to that group but I think you look at business dealing for what they are and at the end of the day the aim of the game is to make money or in my case equity( same thing or near to it).
for a businessman and this will include me that has been in business for over 20 years and I have
to not have these little minor problems and things that are what I call the grey line I would be questioning has he been in business
because for me the reality is that we all do have some bigger then others and to be in my group, I'm not always right( just don't tell me) put also don't tell me its all going well if its not because I can be a b-----rd if thats the case.
morality, networth and insome case opinions or colour should not ( in law for me they should throw it out but thats just me)be of any interest when doing business and its simple why.
because you go into a deal, to win the deal to the best of yours or your groups advantage and morality etc don't come into the equation.
the other thing to remember when going into any negotiating or deal is that you are representing your self or your company but at the end of the day the way you represent yourself is not a reflection on the company( as you may leave that company)but is a reflection of the way you present yourself.
its the same in any endevour of life you can be the worst b---rd that walked into that meeting but if you stand your ground and win the deal and walk out the winner the next time is alot easier.
I am one of the types that belives that we all can have our opinions and we all do
but attack the opinion not the person and if you can put forward the better opinion you will win.
networth, your abilty to make money, or your abilty to leverage does not nor should it change anyones moral standing or there understanding of morals.
the trouble that I see is that people have the opinion that because the person has gained that position that they should because of that position have better or different values and thats not the case.
I have the same value when I had $1.00 as I do now and I have a little more then $1,00 now.

 

[Nigel Kibel]

missed the point

As usual we seemed to be off the topic. I am suprised by the number of people who buy property without doing any research. Not everyone in business is out to cheat you. If you understand the thing you are buying then their is less chance of you making a bad investment. I will be involved in running a compnay in the United States. There are great opportunities their compared to the cynical markets in Australia. I always research what I do. I have not had any clients invest in the United States because until I am comfortable with Australians investing I would not ask anyone to spend their money. Much of America is overpriced but America has a population of 293 Million. In California the medium price is around $530,000 in San Antonio in Texas it is $130,000. Clearly their is still room for growth. It is all about understanding the market.

 

[see_change]

Using a political analogy, I think it's easier to deal with corrupt politicians (by that I mean US and Australia level corrupt, not African or North Korean corrupt) than fanatics. Fanatics are hard to predict. Slightly corrupt politicians are much easier to deal with, in part because I know how they think.

And yes, I do think I'm corrupt. Just a touch. Traded my high horse for an IP!
Alex

Alexlee , Who said anything about dealing with fanatics.......

I don't think anyone on this forum expects to get anywhere in life without taking tough/ hard decisions and at times most of us will be willing to take tough negotiating stances with people who have through their own fault got them into financially stuffed situations. ( As I said , I agree with you that people have to take responsibility for their own decisions ) . There is a difference between being a hard negotiator / a tough businessman and being corrupt.

I'm happy to deal with normal people who have a sense of morality and don't going around wearing the label of corrupt as though it's a badge of honor....

Thommo, no one expects anyone or any company to perfect ( well I know I don't ). People / companies will make mistakes and the standards of accountability / community expectations have changed dramatically over the last twenty years. Knowing and accepting this , and aiming to improve are what we can expect.

See Change

 

[alexlee]

I'm happy to deal with normal people who have a sense of morality and don't going around wearing the label of corrupt as though it's a badge of honor....

Fair enough. You of course have the freedom to deal with whoever you want, as do we all.

In my case, I'm a pretty jaded and sarcastic guy to start with, and getting older hasn't changed my views. I don't respect many of the people society labels as virtuous these days (including politicians, religious and business leaders). In short, if those people are considered virtuous, I don't want to be tarred with the same brush. I'm more than happy to be called corrupt. Given the falseness of the 'virtuous' these days, I'm rather proud to be considered to be evil.

I don't have to lie as much, for one thing.
Alex

 

[kph]

Looks like we are off topic again.....
Keep it up..this discussion is far more interesting than the original topic..

Over to you seech for a response.

kp

 

[RichardC]

By your definition SC, I'm amoral. While I don't like being called so, I can live with it.

By my definition half the posters on this forum exhibit similar morality in their greed and their approach to wealth creation. Such is life.

I tender as evidence the following from a prolific, respected poster:

"One person's "problem" is another person's "opportunity".

The more pain we feel at a macro level the more of a hit property prices will take and the more cyclical the property market will become! If property just religiously went up 10% pa across the board year on year then we could all do very well out of it, but there wouldn't be the opportunities for the huge gains we currently get out of the boom/bust cycle we experience. I would like a bit of a bust now so that we can get a real boom in the coming years and not just boring slow incremental growth..."

To hell with a fair go for the little guy