IP Marketers & Educators - Newsletter

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From: Property Investigator


I have decided to devote a lot of my time to investigating investment property marketers and those offering wealth creation courses or seminars.

Why am I doing this? Because, having been previously shafted by an investment marketer, and seeing so many people burnt by some of the marketing guru's, I've decided to find out once and for all who is good, who is bad and who should be avoided at all costs.

Also, I've seen lot's of requests on this Forum for information about various marketing/financial/investment/training companies, so I've decided to compile an exhaustive encyclopedia of every known operator in the IP industry, which may help many newbies make wise decisions.

I am going to publish my findings on a weekly (or thereabouts) frequency, by email only, to anyone who wants it.

I will be approaching each target company as a prospective (newbie) client and will get them to do their entire sales pitch on me, including presenting me with properties to purchase or courses/seminars to attend.

I am not a newbie, and I have enough knowledge to ask all the right questions, make all the necessary enquiries and to judge the merits of the services they provide or the properties they are selling. In the case of companies actually selling property, I am also going to find out exactly how much money they make, who they represent and what margins are being applied. I am also going to insist on actual testimonials from previous clients and talk to them as well to obtain their real life experiences.

I'm going to have a lot of fun with this!

I am going to do this with companies in Melbourne and Sydney, then publish my results. I must stress that the findings will be my opinion only resulting from my personal dealings with each particular company. I know of the potential legal ramifications of this, so nothing will be emailed until it has been cleared by my solicitor.

By the way, I don't sell anything and I'm not a reporter looking for a story. I am doing this cos I want to.

If you would like to receive my email updates on each company as I complete each one, please send me an email requesting this. Send your email to propertyinvestigator@hotmail.com.

If you have suggestions of particular companies you think I should investigate let me know their names and contact details and I'll see if I can include them.

Property Investigator
Expect the best, plan for the worst.
 
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Reply: 1
From: Steve Navra


Excellent Idea!

Please include Canberra groups (Who offer education in Sydney and Melbourne), and start off with Navra Investments!

I won't know who you are, so it will be valid.

And I would appreciate any critique, be it positive or negative.

Regards,

Steve
 
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Reply: 1.2
From: Michael Yardney


You can count me in also.
I'd be happy for you to scrutinize how we help our clients. we would always be willing to hear constructive criticism.
I'd also love to hear what you find out about a lot of the cowboys in the industry.
It will be very interesting.
Michael Yardney
Metropole Properties
 
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Reply: 2
From: The Wife


TSK....

TW
 
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Reply: 2.1
From: Mike .



Hello Property
Investigator,

I wish you well on your crusade. Looking forward to your scary
stories. Can you clarify something you said in your post:

I will be approaching each target company as a prospective
(newbie) client and will get them to do their entire sales pitch
on me, including presenting me with properties to purchase or
courses/seminars to attend.

I am not a newbie, and I have enough knowledge to ask all the
right questions, make all the necessary enquiries and to judge
the merits of the services they provide or the properties they
are selling.

Mike: Are you presenting yourself as a newbie or not? As soon as
you start asking those awkward questions your "newbie"
cover will be blown.

Below is a veritable rogues gallery of suspects. I hope you can
sort the good guys from the bad guys. If you get any dirt on
Michael Croft let me know - some blackmail might be in order;^)


<table border="0" cellspacing="4">
<tr>
<td>Marketing
Companies
</td>
<td width="50"></td>
<td>Seminars</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Greenwich Financial
Services</td>
<td></td>
<td>Peter Spann</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Greenwich Solutions</td>
<td></td>
<td>Geoff Doidge</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Consolidated Property
Investments</td>
<td></td>
<td>Henry Kaye</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>National Consolidated
Investments</td>
<td></td>
<td>Adam Hudson</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Philco Property
Investments</td>
<td></td>
<td>Michael Yardney</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Philco Premier Properties</td>
<td></td>
<td>Steve McKnight</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Custodian Wealth Builders</td>
<td></td>
<td>Steve Navra</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Investment Source</td>
<td></td>
<td>Michael Croft</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Strategic Property
Investment Planners</td>
<td></td>
<td>Robert Kyosaki</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Pacific Eastcoast </td>
<td></td>
<td>John Burley</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Saxby Bridge </td>
<td></td>
<td>Jan Somers</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Sunshine Pacific</td>
<td></td>
<td>Strategic Management
Works</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>The McCarthy Group</td>
<td></td>
<td>Australian Investors'
Association </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Park Trent Investments</td>
<td></td>
<td>Dolf de Roos </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Asset Corporation</td>
<td></td>
<td>Allen Edwards</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Quartile Property Network</td>
<td></td>
<td>Jamie McIntyre - 21st
Century Academy</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Quest Apartment Group</td>
<td></td>
<td>Trading Mastery</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Harts Group Financial
Services</td>
<td></td>
<td>Heritage Financial Group</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>National Property
Investors</td>
<td></td>
<td>The Investment Institute </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>La Trobe Property
Research</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Harwood Pacific</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>The Investors Club</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Stanton Hillier Parker </td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Australian Property
Masters </td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Richard Wakelin Property
Consulting </td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Harvard Securities</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Landmark Investment
Services</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Zenith</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Summus Group</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Genesis Financial
Consultancy Property Division </td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jack Weaver</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Queensland State Homes</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Asset Planning Group</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Defence Housing Authority</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
</table>


</body>
</html>
 
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Reply: 2.1.1
From: Property Investigator


Mike,

You want dirt on Michael Croft? How do you know I'm not Michael Croft? Or maybe even Sim, or Gee Cee, or Robert? Ahh, you may never know!

I received an email from someone who was visualising me in a trenchcoat, dark glasses and a false beard. Normally, that's only on a Friday night.

But sure, if I get any dirt on MC, you'll be the first to know!

To answer your other question, in real life I'm anything but a newbie. When acting as a potential client, I will be presenting msyelf as a newbie, so that they spin me all their stories thinking I'm a sucker. Slowly, I will be asking tougher questions and then giving them a really hard time, cos you can betcha life I know more than they do. As I said before, lot's o fun to be had.

Private (The Fugitive) Investigator
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1
From: Robert Forward


Can you tape the conversations with the marketiers please, oh please please....

I want to have a HUGE laugh.

Cheers
Robert

The Sydney "Freestylers" Group Leader.
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.2
From: Michael G


Hi all,

I had an info pack sent to me from a company offering property investments.

The first page on the document had a the following paragraph;

"Investors should not act solely on the basis of the material contained in this report, which are general comments only and do not consitute advise. Also changes in legislation, particularly tax legislation, may occur. The report is provided as a guide to investors and for their private information. It is confidential and should not be made available to any third person without our prior approval."

The report then contains;

- 8 pages generated from Somers/De Roos PIA program
- 6 pages of generate Q&As
- 1 page property selection criteria
- 4 deposit bond application
- 17 pages regarding a section 221D tax variation
- 7 pages of a quantity survey report sample.

So it interests me when they say "Also changes in legislation, particularly tax legislation, may occur", and 55% pf the report is related to tax deductions (221D + QS report).

I'll pass this group along to PI.

Michael G
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.1.1
From: Robert Forward


But your a building inspector, you crawl through holes and stuff in houses so you should have dirt on you. If you didn't I wouldn't hire you as a building inspector.

Cheers
Robert

The Sydney "Freestylers" Group Leader.
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1
From: The Wife


Hey....I dunno if I am insulted or not by Freestyler Network not making that list of names.

I am still unsure as to why any of those guys are so bad? I AM unfamiliar about those places as I tend to do all my own stuff, but I cant see why someone making more profit than the next guy ie: selling above market value is wrong? Maybe I am thinking of it wrong, I sorta see it as the buyers fault for buying it. You go into one shop, buy a stereo, its DOUBLE the price what you would pay down the road, whose fault is it? AM I not seeing the light? somebody help me out here please.

TW
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1
From: Joanna K


I kind of have to agree with TW here. It's up to the purchaser to do their own research, and if they don't do their due dilligance and proceed with the purchase, then that will become an expensive lesson for the purchaser.

I think the problem that people are going on about though is the highly inflated "secret" commissions and kickbacks these intricate networks have.

By the same token, I had some clients who bought a unit through a marketing company and they are kicking themselves. They constantly asked me whether they'd paid too much for it and now they wish they never bought the darn thing in the first place. BUT again, it comes back to buyer beware does it not? I think it's human nature for one to try and pass responsibility of their actions to someone else.

Incidentally PI, how did you get "done"? I'd like to know what sort of tactics this company used...

Kind regards
THE RENTAL SPECIALISTS

JOANNA KARAVASILIS
Principal

rentals@rentalspecialists.com.au
www.rentalspecialists.com.au
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1
From: Michael Croft


The current paradigm in this country is not only that we should protect people from the unscrupluous, but that we must proptect them from themselves. Ultimately it will send Australia broke because we can't stop people being fools.

Michael Croft
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1
From: Ian Findlay


I partially agree with Michael and TW. We cannot or want to legislate
against people being idiots but we can legislate to make so called
"professionals" professional. For example if I go out and buy a house higher
than market value then thats my bad luck but if I get advice from
professionals who should know better and I rely materially on that advice
then thats another matter.

I have no problem with marketing as long as the marketeer discloses their
commission rates, who they are being paid by and whether they have any
vested interest in the result. I also don't have a problem with advice that
later turns out to be bad as long as the person receiving the advice knows
that it is just advice and the person giving it gives it in "good faith".

Ian

> From: "Michael Croft" <michael@croftproperty.com>
>
> The current paradigm in this country is not only that we should protect
people from the unscrupluous, but that we must proptect them from
themselves. Ultimately it will send Australia broke because we can't stop
people being fools.
>
> Michael Croft
>
>
>
> To reply: mailto:propertyforum.25603@bne003w.webcentral.com.au
> To start a new topic: mailto:propertyforum@bne003w.webcentral.com.au
> To login: http://bne003w.webcentral.com.au:80/~wb013
>
>
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1
From: Property Investigator


Survival of the fittest? Law of the jungle - the strong survive and the weak die. It's genetic isn't it? Let's take advantage of people just cos we can.

So what if you pay too much for the stereo asks TW? Well, if you do, it wont ruin your life. But if you pay $ 50,000 to some rip-off marketer, it can ruin your life. I know lot's of people who's lives have literally been ruined thru this. And what about the dopey person who is conned into borrowing $15,000 to do some training course, and could never afford or have the ability to utlise anything their taught?

Stuff em. If they are so dopey, they deserve to be ripped off. Is that the way it should be?

I don't think so. You can never protect everyone from everything, nor should you. But, to intentionally set about designing a strategy that takes advantage of innocent people (with the potential of ruining their lives) for one's personal gain, although legal, should at least be exposed. On the contrary, those that actually help people legally and legitimately where all parties win, these too should be exposed.

As with every industry, their are good and bad. Don't know about you, but I want to know who's good and who's bad. I'm trying to work my way up the genetic tree so that I will be a survivor, not a victim.

PI
 
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Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Michael Croft


I agree PI and you are but a part of anothers due diligence.Don't take that the wrong way, it is not a put down; I don't know you yet ;-)

Michael Croft
 
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"Its a free country, throw 15K away if you want"

Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2
From: The Wife


PI,

For all we know, you sell property! at the "right" price of course.

There’s a risk that people will lose money in property investing no matter WHO they brought it off!

Sure I would like to know who is good and who is bad, so that I can tell me friends and relatives which are the 'right' ones according to some guy who has been ripped off and now investigates them.

Somehow, I think my friends and relatives are going to do whatever they damn well want, no matter what I say. ( As has been the case in the past, I have a very close relative who has had her life shattered by this, almost did her marriage in, almost bankrupt, ruined their chance of having a family...and so on, and so on, did I put forward the case? yes, did I beg them not to ? yes, have I done this with countless others? yes. Do they listen? rarely)

Is it sickening to my stomach to see this happening? yes. Can I stop them? No, you can lead a horse to water........

Sure, put the bad guys on the bad list...

A. They WILL find you, and they WILL sue you, they will probably win, last time I looked at the law, it wasn’t illegal to make a profit OR a kickback. This shouldn’t stop you cause you say your an old hand and you "know what your doing" GOOD! GREAT! We need people like you, wish you great success.

B. I support you whole heartedly in getting fairer legislation passed to make things "fairer" yet again for the average Joe on the street. God Bless them, hope this doesn’t mean we have to pay more tax somewhere? I am sure that the government is making mega bucks from all this "stimulation" of the economy, goodness, if they weren’t making mega bucks, they would have stomped it out ages ago. Just imagine.....the Queensland government MINUS all the money they have collected via the sales of the 2nd tier marketers over the past 15 years! we have to fight the government??...sheeesh.


C. The "bad guys" will find another loophole or way to make money, do we chase them again? do we get trampled by the crowds rushing to give them more money? HEY! They DO give you a free flight you know!


Oh...and also I take offence at the way you refer to people who have been ripped off....they are far from dopey, most of them are professionals at what they do, they just don’t happen to be a good investor, at THAT particular moment. Yes Yes its sad, I couldn’t agree more, but you know, some people pick themselves up and dust themselves off, and try try again, USUALLY wiser, and others just cry about it.

There are of course more people who have been ripped off so badly that their lives WILL never recover, THIS is sad. I would like to see a study of those that NEVER recovered, and why they didn’t.

My point is I guess, we are all mostly born with the same set of tools, and certainly with the same options, I chose to leave school very young and pursue other things, my relative who was "ripped of by the bad guys" stayed right thru school and got a great education, we visited the "bad guy" together. She chose to go with the "baddies" I didn’t. We both had options.

What IS a professional Investor anyway? Is it someone who knows what they are doing? Is there a test one can take?

I DO have sympathy for those who have suffered, I reckon if I got "done over" big time, and it wasn’t my fault, I was scammed, I would take it to the highest court in the land, I would be throwing myself in front of every TV camera I could find, till I felt justice has been done. I wouldn’t be trying to find out who charges too much. That’s kinda like a shopping guide. Unless you want to be the Australian version of that American guy who runs around telling the world of the baddies…I forget his name JT Reed?...wow, great idea!! He makes heaps of money. Although I’m sure this isn’t what you would be doing, its not really an Aussie thing I reckon.

PI, I don’t want you to think that I am "having a go at you", I think its a terribly noble exercise what you are doing, my greatest concern would be your "personal views and investing techniques" would cloud or bias you're judgment of who is good and who is bad (u should live by there are only varying degrees of bad, keeps you alert). If you're judgment is clouded by you're own personal professional? Investing techniques, then is the information you are passing onto people telling them THIS one is "good" correct?

What’s the bet we have someone who utilizes a different technique to double check the ones you say are good and discovers they are bad? GASP...what if some poor dopey took YOU"RE advice and they lost money? Hey...are you qualified to give advice? man I aint, I get canned for it all the time, my solicitor keeps jumping on me and yelling THAT SOUNDS LIKE ADVICE STOP IT NOW...sheeesh.

Let’s talk about "That Man" who charges 15K for a seminar, some people were 'dopey"? ( your expression NOT mine) others knew exactly what they were doing, and WANTED to part with their money and they say it was the best thing they ever did, they really accelerated their financial lives!! If we stopped "that Man" from doing his so called "over priced" seminars to save the "dopey" we are...just like the Australian Public Education System, holding back the bright ones so the dopey ones can keep up.

What about "That Man" who teaches the 15K seminar, isn’t it $59 for the feeder seminar? Do they fool everyone to think that it’s EASY and you can’t lose? Isn’t there a full money back guarantee on the last day of the 15K event? Haven’t you worked out by the last day if you are "ready" for this level or not? and if not, back out, get your money back? Somebody tell me if I am right here because I have never seen "That Man" and I only know he talks about OTP, I am not sure what else he teaches. Mate you cant work out that after giving away 15K that you now don’t have enough money to buy any property? how on earth did you work out how to get 15K? what! Life savings?! And you didn’t say STOP I want my money back until the hour after it was to late? Nobody did any pre figures?

God I sound mocking, I really don’t mean to, hey, I have been suckered into buying stuff to, damn good salesmen, boy have I been red faced, especially as I have a daily chant and wave my arms about in front of the bathroom mirror singing to myself Jerry Springer style

"Your! Miss Savvy,

Go! Miss Savvy

Miss Savvy"

ahh well you win some you lose some,

It’s what I did AFTER I lost the shirt of my back that makes me a good investor today.


Maybe I am wrong PI, if I am, I can accept it and hope I grow from the experience, teach me PI.

TW
 
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"Its a free country, throw 15K away if you want"

Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1
From: Mark Laszczuk


In one of the posts, someone said that it's human nature to not take responsibility for your actions. That's so true. Look everywhere around you, it happens all the time. Your partner/workmates/friends/family/YOU (and me, but practising on getting that down to zero). We all do it. So some greedy S.O.B. ASKS you to pay $50K more than a property is worth. Notice how I said ASK. They don't twist your arm behind your back or put a gun to your head. No, they just fill your head with nice stories and figures, and then YOU sign on the dotted line. If they can get $50K more out of you just cause you can't be bothered,won't do or are too lazy to do some research, then who's fault is it? Yours. Okay, what they're doing is wrong. But they'll get their's. Karma will come along one day and bite them in the bum. Yes, I feel bad for those people that get jacked. But the facts are that the only people that have to blame for their misfortunes are themselves.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'
 
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Sim

Administrator
"Its a free country, throw 15K away if you want"

Reply: 2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2
From: Sim' Hampel


Wow... and I thought I ranted and raved in my posts ! Good one TW ;-)

sim.gif
 
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