is this true?

good morning all,

I was listening to a lecture on Radio National last night and the person said that Australia is now the 8th richest country in the world (when counting our mining deposits)...I didn't get the person's name though.

So is this true now - does your raw material deposits really take us to now become the 8th richest country in the world?


Thanks


g
 
good morning all,

I was listening to a lecture on Radio National last night and the person said that Australia is now the 8th richest country in the world (when counting our mining deposits)...I didn't get the person's name though.

So is this true now - does your raw material deposits really take us to now become the 8th richest country in the world?


I'd say it's just based just on GDP per capita. If it was based on raw mineral and energy deposits, we'd absolutely flog everyone by a million miles.

I can pretty much prove there is billions of dollars worth of stuff just under my 1,000 hectare farm. Lets just look at coal? Lets use a minimum 2 metre thick seam, although some are 15 metres thick in my area.

Undisturbed solid coal weighs 1.5 kilos per litre.

2 metres thick of coal would weigh 3 tonnes per square metre.

So, in a hectare there is 10,000 times 3 tonnes,
equals 30,000 tonnes.

So, on a thousand hectares there is 30,000 tonnes times 1,000
equals 30 million tonnes.

The best quality coaking coal is worth $200 per tonne, and that's what is under my area, apparently it's so good it doesn't even need washing.

30 million tonnes times $200
equals 6 billion dollars.


There is probably also coal seam gas under me, but hopefully I won't ever find out, as I don't want drillers on here, nor coal miners.


See ya's.
 
There is probably also coal seam gas under me, but hopefully I won't ever find out, as I don't want drillers on here, nor coal miners.


Now "we" do know, and "we" know where you live......:p

bye
 
Hi TC,

On a slightly more serious note, I am beginning to believe that you will be in trouble in the future as the peak oil situation starts to bite.

I have a feeling that all cheap to get at energy sources will be utilized.

Whether we are at 'peak oil' right now or 5-10 years away will only adjust the timing of grabbing the energy sources. If they build infrastructure in your area to harvest, process, move coal, then they will continue to do so until it is uneconomic. The governments who live off the royalties/taxes will bend over to help them.

Considering the US military has put out a report on diminishing world oil availability of something like 10% between 2012-2015, the energy situation is likely about to get tight.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/11/peak-oil-production-supply

bye
 
Last edited:
Hi TC,

On a slightly more serious note, I am beginning to believe that you will be in trouble in the future as the peak oil situation starts to bite.

I have a feeling that all cheap to get at energy sources will be utilized.

bye


Your probably right.

I'm hearing that the drill holes under these alluvial plains just flood with water as I'd expect they would. Mind you, I get most of my info from miners and contractors at the pub.

I know an old experienced coal miner who years ago told me they could never get this coal unless the miners wore scuba gear.

Anyway, what ever happens, farmers seem to be either getting bought out or compensated, so if that continues there's people with bigger problems then I have.



I know your a keen 'Landline' watcher. You'd have seen the coal seam gas stories on landline then? The santos CEO said they have absolutely no idea what they will do with the tonnes of toxic salt that comes up with all the water and gas. There will be millions of tonnes of the stuff if the industry goes ahead as forecast. He seems to think that future technology will come to the rescue and that it will someday have a value and it's nothing to worry about. I'd think it will always be worthless, and I can see toxic salt mountains being built to store the stuff. That will be lovely to have down the paddock? :eek:

Apparently 'Four Corners' is doing a story on coal seam gas out of Queensland soon. Keep an eye out for it. Lots of farmers want coal seam gas too. If you have a 100,000 hectare cattle farm with mostly scrub and sand and gravel, with plenty of room to build the evaporation pond and another useless paddock to store the toxic salt and get paid for doing that, and someone wants to build you graded roads everywhere and you get nice juicy payments from the gas company for the next 40 years, then why wouldn't you like it? It's all different though when you are talking about the type of land I'm on.


See ya's.
 
Last edited:
I was listening to a lecture on Radio National last night
g


Well, here's a newpaper article on it. I'm interested in this sort of stuff.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/australia-8thrichest-imf-20100422-tfvk.html


It says that 100 years ago Australia was the world's richest country, living off lucrative exports of gold, wool and beef but as the gold ran out and manufacturing became the main driver of global wealth, Australia sank to 17th in 1991. So, as manufacturing dies and our mineral wealth increases in value we are heading back up again.

So the figures are definately based on GDP per capita. As I said, we'd be way up at the top if it was based on resource deposits. You could also add our agricultural output as a resource asset. It would be second highest per capita after new Zealand and if we look after it, we have it forever more.



The IMF projects that by 2013 we will climb to seventh, overtaking the Netherlands. But the top six include Luxembourg, Singapore and Hong Kong, where GDP is swollen by multinationals attributing their income to countries with low tax rates.

Those three aside, Norway is the developed world's richest country, thanks to its oil and gas exports, followed by the United States, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Australia.


See ya's.
 
Considering the US military has put out a report on diminishing world oil availability of something like 10% between 2012-2015, the energy situation is likely about to get tight.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/11/peak-oil-production-supply

bye


That a good article Bill. It's a wonder it hasn't got more publicity.

'60 minutes' did a story on coal seam gas last night. I might be a bit mixed up, that might have been the '4 corners' story I was thinking of. Yes probably.


See ya's.
 
I'd say it's just based just on GDP per capita. If it was based on raw mineral and energy deposits, we'd absolutely flog everyone by a million miles.

I can pretty much prove there is billions of dollars worth of stuff just under my 1,000 hectare farm. Lets just look at coal? Lets use a minimum 2 metre thick seam, although some are 15 metres thick in my area.

Undisturbed solid coal weighs 1.5 kilos per litre.

2 metres thick of coal would weigh 3 tonnes per square metre.

So, in a hectare there is 10,000 times 3 tonnes,
equals 30,000 tonnes.

So, on a thousand hectares there is 30,000 tonnes times 1,000
equals 30 million tonnes.

The best quality coaking coal is worth $200 per tonne, and that's what is under my area, apparently it's so good it doesn't even need washing.

30 million tonnes times $200
equals 6 billion dollars.


There is probably also coal seam gas under me, but hopefully I won't ever find out, as I don't want drillers on here, nor coal miners.


See ya's.

I caught some of this on sixty minutes last night, though didn't get to see it all. Story below

Undermined - Sixty Minutes

How's this for a raw deal?

A big company marches onto your land, sinks a well without your permission and then proceeds to threaten your livelihood.

And it does it all with the consent and approval of the government.

Now this would be bad enough if it was happening halfway across the world in some tin pot dictatorship.

But this is happening in our backyard. And it's our laws and our politicians who are letting it happen.


Cont....
 
A big company marches onto your land, sinks a well without your permission and then proceeds to threaten your livelihood.


I suppose the only teensy thing wrong with your quote Redwing, wherever it was taken from is ;

1. It doesn't matter whether it's a big company or a little company. I don't know why the journalist mentions size ??

2. I don't know what the farmer's definition of "your land" is, but I bet it differs greatly from both the Aboriginal's who inhabited before him, and also the State Govt who have exploratory rights over the lot.

3. The State Govt doesn't need the landholders permission. This is where the farmer's all get their knickers in a twist. They assume - wrongly of course - that if they put up a fence up, no-one can come onto 'their' land without their permission.....backed up by the threat of a shotgun. Of course, the notion is ludicrous, but that's half the reason why farmers are farmers. Men like their patch, they like to be king of their patch and don't take too kindly to being told they are but a lowly prince with bugger all rights.

4. Even worse than that, they aren't entitled to bugger all of the mineral wealth underneath the land. It belongs exclusively to the Crown. This really gets their goat. They hear stories about Texas ranchers getting huge royalties, but of course our land title system entitles them to nothing. They normally do bugger all research, and on discovering this fact, they normally have a bleat as it goes directly against their wrongly held assumption.



The best they might get out of the deal is a few new roads graded, or a new gate or two, if the equipment necessary won't fit through their ramshackle old lean to's. Word quickly spreads that without getting jack squat out of the deal, all their neighbours are strongly opposed.


So they have a camp fire amongst themselves, invite a sympathetic camera crew or two along, possibly Barnaby Joyce or a National federal MP, and then go to work on the wrong assumptions. Add in a cute wife, a couple of forlorn little kids trying to support their Dad's cause against the big bad nasty miner / driller.....this works especially well if they are huge and from overseas. Add a generous layer of environmental fear and concern over the whole lot and you have the makings of a great story.


What's the end result ?? They all eventually are forced to drop their wrong assumptions about who's king of the castle.....and finally pick up the legislation governing land access for mineral exploration and discover that the laws have always been there, and always will be.....they just didn't know anything about them.


Sounds of crumbling castles ensue, and the deposed king, ably supported by crying kids and grief stricken wife all sit around the kitchen table and have a good moan about the good old days how grandpa opened the country up and it's his duty to pass the farm legacy onto his son.


Meanwhile, the city folk a thousand km away couldn't give a rats about any of that nonsense, and demand that when they flick the light on, it damn well comes on, and when they want to jump on the computer - it works and they sure as hell will get mad if the goodies in the fridge and freezer go off with no power. And don't even think about putting the cost of electricity up or the State Govt will get turfed out on their ear.


....and so, the situation remains as is.
 
I'm not sure if anyone has had a mining company onto their land yet against the farmers wishes. It's all just a threat. As I've said a few times before, Santos told us and my neighbours that they were coming onto our farm, and when I told them to rack off they said too bad, they were coming on and that's that. But that was 2 or 3 years ago.

I think they have pulled their heads in. No one has had any drillers on yet who didn't want them, and those who have had been paid, don't know how much as it's all hush hush. No one knows if they have found anything either, as I suppose it's stock market sensitive information. Santos has since bought a farm and did their drilling.

There is no way you could put down gas wells on my farm on a flood plain, with the gravel roads and infrastructure, and the evaporation pond, without effecting my farming operation in a big way. I'd imagine I'd get bought out. That will do. I wouldn't want to live next to such an operation anyway. My land is worth $6 million. They can buy me out for $12 million, and I will chuck the houses and sheds and silos in for nix. :D I've a good idea how much worth of gas comes from these gas wells, so I know they can pay up. Other than that they can rack off.


See ya's.
 
told us and my neighbours that they were coming onto our farm, and when I told them to rack off they said too bad, they were coming on and that's that.

How does a person with no authority whatsoever ever get into a mental state of mind to delude themselves that they can tell another person / organisation with full authority to "rack off", with the expectation that they will be taken seriously ??

I think they have pulled their heads in.....Other than that they can rack off.

Have you read the legislation that affects your farm TC and gives the Lease holder of your land, granted by the State Govt, the right to explore however they so wish ?? I'm sure you know deep down in your heart that it is the farmer who needs to "pull their head in" - whatever that means.


If you are able to somehow bluff your way into cajoling them to giving you 12m for unfettered access, which they already have, then more power to you. Good onya I say. When you get the cheque in your hand, give us a call and we'll go buy something.
 
"Peak oil" is not discussed in polite circles, but it is upon us.

Did you know we have passed "peak gold"? Sth Africa's production is down >10% again last year, I read. TC might want to expand/amend but my understanding is that we are also at or about "peak food" so maybe they will be prevented from grabbing his farm.

I'm in the camp that believes that China's appetite for raw materials is real and on-going. When China builds a million cars only a thousand (a guess) would be recycled so it is mainly "new" steel. In the developed world we would be scrapping over 900,000 cars (another guess) so there is much less demand for iron ore. Copper is possibly worse because a decade or so ago the streets of New York were one if the biggest copper mines in the world as they replaced the old copper telephone wires.

Back to original post, "Yes I would believe". The change in my lifetime is nothing short of spectacular. A suburban McMansion today is akin to what I dreamt Hollywood stars would live in, in the '50s. The life of the common man was primitive then.
 
How does a person with no authority whatsoever ever get into a mental state of mind to delude themselves that they can tell another person / organisation with full authority to "rack off", with the expectation that they will be taken seriously ??
.


That's funny Dazz. Considering how hard you do deals and all.



We are all winning so far then. Santos did rack off and they bought a farm instead. If I'd have said to Santos 3 years ago,.....


"sure guys, come on here and drill where you want, I know your allowed to and I know there's nothing I can do. Just put the evaporation pond over there and take the toxic salt with you when you leave."


.....I'd probably not even been offered any payment. Your looking at things by the exact word of the law, and your absolutely correct. A mining company can come onto someones land and do what they want, and if we all let them they would.

The fact of the matter in the real world though is very different. The government certainly does own all that's under someones land. So if the government sells the right to explore and mine to a mining company, then the mining company can mine that resource. But the farmer will be compensated. You can't just take the farm off that farmer with no compensation. All we are doing is getting the best possible deal for ourselves.


I'd thought someone like your self would have worked that out. :)


See ya's.
 
Fair enough TC, you acknowledge that you don't have a legal leg to stand on and the rest comes down to "bluff" to extract the best commercial deal for you and your family. No problems with that at all. I can't comment on the "bluff" side of the equation.


I remember well on the ABC documentary a few years back now the large court case staged in Charleville QLD, when some roving Supreme Court judge heard the case of an aggreived farmer vs the coal exploration company. The courtroom was packed to the rafters with community / moral / even greeny !!! support for the farmer against the miner.


It took the judge all of about 10 minutes to throw the case out, declaring the miner had no case to answer and was well within their rights to explore their Lease, unfettered by the farmer's objections that they were somehow trespassing on his farm. It was a nonsense of course. No such thing as trespassing on farmer's land when it comes to miners exploring on their lease.


All of the farmers pored out onto the streets claiming a massive injustice and "it just wasn't right".....but of course none had read / understood / acknowledged the over-riding legislation. Anyway, I'm sure you saw it and know more than me about it.


Good luck in your commercial negotiations if you ever get the opportunity to play the game. In the meantime, I hope you make a motza with your current farming operation.
 
Fair enough TC, you acknowledge that you don't have a legal leg to stand on and the rest comes down to "bluff" .


Imagine that there was no compensation liable to a farmer? [by the law there's not]. Could you just imagine a gang of police and security guards turning up to a farm house and carting out the farmer and his wife and crying kids. Imagine the TV camera's and irrate neighbours all there too yelling and with placards. All so the farm can be dug up and turned into a coal mine. It would make national news.

It's not going to happen. This is not China. Farmers will be compensated.



There is also a lot of pressure from my neighbours, friends and peers to not let the miners on. My mailbox wouldn't get blown up, and my kids wouldn't get beat up at school, but I would be looked at in a different light with less repect and I'd get a ribbing at the pub.

If I'd have let santos on to do as they wanted 3 years ago I can guarantee I'd have lost my lease contract for 400 hectares. The bloke who owns that place is very wealthy ex city lawyer and is a big wig in the anti mine mob. He'd have kicked me off quick smart if I'd have had santos on drilling not far from him.

No one here wants the miners. But if we have no choice we want as much compensation as we can get. For me, I will aim to be bought out for a lot more than my land is worth and nothing less.



It's nuts to be mining our best farm land. I don't care how much wealth is under it. I don't care if there's a billion dollars worth under it. My farm in a normal year produces a million bucks worth of grain. That's at 15 or 20 cents a kilo. It then gets processed and ends up being worth probably 10 million dollars sitting on the supermarket shelf as bread or eggs or milk or meat.

But if no-one else can see that, it's not my problem. I will take the cash and go elsewhere. But I'd only take the cash right at the end when everyone else is and all hope is lost. I definately won't be the first to go.


See ya's.
 
Last edited:
Hi TC

Imagine that there was no compensation liable to a farmer? [by the law there's not].

This is incorrect. There is an obligation for a mining company to compensate the owner of the surface property for operations that have an impact on them, whether they are exploring or actively mining.

The idea is that the higher value use wins - if the mining company needs the property and can afford to pay full market price for it and they can still make money mining it then they should.

If the farmer can make more money from their land use, this will be reflected in the market price for the property. In this event the mining company would not be able to afford the property and mining doesn't happen.

Whoever can make the most from the land wins. In my view, this is a very sensible approach from a public policy point of view, otherwise there may well be no mining of some of the world's best mineral resources and associated development for Australia.

In practice of course, mining companies typically pay more than market price because they can afford to and dislike bad publicity. Twice market price is a bit of a bad precedent for them though. As the transaction will be on the public record, I suggest 1.5X market price might be worth expecting. But then there should be plenty of transaction history around by now so you can work this out by yourself?

Of course, at the end of the day it is a compulsory acquisition under the relevant Mining Act and doesn't require your consent. Any premium over market price is just an appeal to their better nature :)eek:) and dislike of negative publicity.

It's nuts to be mining our best farm land. I don't care how much wealth is under it.

You don't care how much wealth is under it? $1bn? $10bn? $1000bn? Yet you cite the financial value of what you produce in defence?

Of course it matters how much wealth is under it. It could be Australia's best mining country? There could be diamonds and gold and all sorts under there? The value of the farming land use is known - you stated it yourself - $6m. If someone can afford to pay a heap more for it than that then they should be able to. Because it is worth more to society under the higher land use...

If the land was truly worth more than $6m as a farm, then it would already be valued as such. Unfortunately, food just isn't that valuable... you guys keep producing too much of it! :eek: If food was actually that important it would be valued appropriately. As it is we have so much food we have to export most of it.

BTW, your topsoil can be stored during the mining and then re-spread once the coal seam has gone. Of course it won't be that productive straight away but after a couple of hundred years it should be right as rain. If salty water and all the rest is actually an issue, you can rest assured the mining won't go ahead so nothing to worry about on that front...
 
Hi TC
This is incorrect. There is an obligation for a mining company to compensate the owner of the surface property for operations that have an impact on them, whether they are exploring or actively mining....

Great. Shows how much I know then.


The idea is that the higher value use wins - if the mining company needs the property and can afford to pay full market price for it and they can still make money mining it then they should.
...

Cool. We/farmers just put forward our argument why the most productive land shouldn't be mined. If everyone else thinks that it should, that it's dollars first, then bring it on. Lets get it over with.

The world is certainly awash with plentifull and cheap food as farmers have continued to keep up with the growing demand. That won't continue, but surely people realise that.

To complicate things even further, it's the natural gas that produces fertilizer that has driven the increased food production. Coal can also make fertilizer. It's all tied together eh?


If food was actually that important it would be valued appropriately. As it is we have so much food we have to export most of it....

You could say the same about coal and natural gas too. No shortage is there? 90% is exported.



I really don't care either way. It's raining and drizzly here today.


See ya's.
 
Last edited:
It's all tied together eh?

It is indeed. Good luck with your endeavours TC - whichever way it goes.

As you know, I have been interested in rural property precisely because I think food and consequently rural land is under valued right now. When a few thousand acres of productive land cost the same amount as the house next door you have to wonder...

The green revolution of the last thirty or forty years has been a major factor in keeping up the supply of food but I have my doubts about doubling food production again in the next thirty or so years. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.

Of course, in the meantime I have to find a chunk of dirt that can more than pay its way. That's the hard bit! :eek:

Gotta keep looking though...
 
Top