Landlord trying to relieve us off our rental bond

I hope they don't use that as evidence against you!

The correspondence relates to our disputing their final condition report along with photos, the evidence appears to be in my favour.

Like I said, I'll await receipt of the bond money in full before doing any victory dance.
 
Hi everyone,

Been reading these forums for a long time but had to sign up after reading this thread. I have had similar issues to the OP a couple of times - the property far cleaner on leaving than it was when we moved in and the property manager will still ask for something to be cleaned again. I do have to say we haven't been threatened with holding back of the bond but perhaps that's because I've always gone back and pretended to wipe that non-existent sticky spot off the bench.

I've also had the experience of leaving a rental property and having the property manager say 'the house is great, thank you'. I always leave a property clean, properly clean, I'm a landlord as well as a tenant and I wouldn't dream of moving out without cleaning properly and yet the reaction is either 'thanks that's great' or 'the house is not up to standard, go back and clean x and y' - I can't work it out. I really think that most landlords are not aware that this goes on, and I also think that the entry reports are not updated as per the most recent exit report. The entry reports never seem to match the condition of the house and the new tenant always has a lot of things to add. I can't help thinking that the property manager is hoping that the tenant will not notice small marks and minor damage until it's too late so that they can 'get' them on it when they leave.

Like I said, I'm a landlord too, and I often worry about the way my own property manager is treating my tenants, it all seems to be okay and I haven't had any issues reported to me but I would hate to think that my PM is like some of the ones I've had to deal with when renting. Not having rented for many many years until we moved for personal reasons about 6 years ago, the whole process of finding a property and the hoops one has to jump through have been quite eye-opening.
 
We're now renting and, as a landlord, I was surprised at how much was left off the entry report.

I basically wrote war and peace all over it, to note down every chip and smudge and nail hole and carpet stain and plaster crack. PM was fine with that and happy that I did so, but does make you wonder if they actually even go and look at the place to make the initial report.

Many things were rather serious and obvious - like plastic cable holder things stuck on the skirtings all around the lounge room - which weren't noted and instead was written down as "freshly painted" (the owner had just re-painted the house) - and two knobs missing from the cooktop.

I just think how luckly I am to be a landlord and know what to look for.

p.s. Great news re your bond. I'm wondering if there haven't been other complaints and the new PM is building some sort of case against the old one - to cover herself. Perhaps the old PM was in coherts with a cleaner.
 
We're now renting and, as a landlord, I was surprised at how much was left off the entry report.

I basically wrote war and peace all over it, to note down every chip and smudge and nail hole and carpet stain and plaster crack. PM was fine with that and happy that I did so, but does make you wonder if they actually even go and look at the place to make the initial report.

Many things were rather serious and obvious - like plastic cable holder things stuck on the skirtings all around the lounge room - which weren't noted and instead was written down as "freshly painted" (the owner had just re-painted the house) - and two knobs missing from the cooktop.

I just think how luckly I am to be a landlord and know what to look for.

p.s. Great news re your bond. I'm wondering if there haven't been other complaints and the new PM is building some sort of case against the old one - to cover herself. Perhaps the old PM was in coherts with a cleaner.

Exactly what I just did!

Door handle was damaged for the only door you can use as an exit, damage to skirting boards, large mark on wall were all overlooked. You gotta wonder whether they do it on purpose or not...

Good news for my dispute - the previous place passed it's inspection with flying colours. The day before the PM got notification of a CTTT hearing for there being no lease break fee applicable :D
 
Totally agree about the entry reports - I have had to add extra pages at times. Three days to get the entry report back seemed more than generous before I was a tenant myself; now it almost isn't long enough!

Moved into an older house a few years ago and noted on the entry report that all the light switches and power points were dirty. I hadn't noticed just how bad they were while being shepherded through with everyone else at the inspection, but they were brown and sort of 'sticky' from dirt and body oil, the way light switches get if they're never cleaned. I'd attached photos of everything to the entry report but I received it back with my 'dirty' crossed out and 'discoloured' written instead.

I'd cleaned them by then and they were white again so in a fit of new tenant peevishness I emailed a set of before and after photos to the PM. Yes, it was a little thing, I should have just cleaned them and forgotten it but it wasn't the only issue on the report. Everything was marked as 'clean and undamaged' and almost everything was dirty or grimy. This sort of thing can only put the tenant on the defensive from day one.

Having said that, you couldn't pay me enough to be a PM and deal with some of the shockers of tenants I've read about on here.
 
Totally agree about the entry reports - I have had to add extra pages at times. Three days to get the entry report back seemed more than generous before I was a tenant myself; now it almost isn't long enough!

Moved into an older house a few years ago and noted on the entry report that all the light switches and power points were dirty. I hadn't noticed just how bad they were while being shepherded through with everyone else at the inspection, but they were brown and sort of 'sticky' from dirt and body oil, the way light switches get if they're never cleaned. I'd attached photos of everything to the entry report but I received it back with my 'dirty' crossed out and 'discoloured' written instead.

I'd cleaned them by then and they were white again so in a fit of new tenant peevishness I emailed a set of before and after photos to the PM. Yes, it was a little thing, I should have just cleaned them and forgotten it but it wasn't the only issue on the report. Everything was marked as 'clean and undamaged' and almost everything was dirty or grimy. This sort of thing can only put the tenant on the defensive from day one.

Having said that, you couldn't pay me enough to be a PM and deal with some of the shockers of tenants I've read about on here.

Yep. I've been lucky with my tenants to date.

But I think being a renter and an owner gives you a pretty different perspective on things.
 
What happens is that the sister/brother/best friend/other relative of the PM is the "preferred cleaner". the tenants cleans the property. The PM says no, that's not clean enough, bond not refundable unless it is cleaned professionally. Our cleaner can do it in three hours at $60/whatever per hour. Because it's much less hassle to agree to do that than slog it out in the Tribunal, and usually the poor sods need their bond desperately to get into the next place, the tenant agrees. The PM/s sister/boyfriend whatever gets 3 hours payment, maybe they go around and pull out that moss at the back step and pick up the scrap of paper left on the vanity and wipe the dust that's gathered since the tenant moved out, the tenant is stung again but everybody else is happy. the landlord is happy because he has a clean property. the PM is happy because once again s/he has proved his/her worth to the landlord and funnelled money to her cronies. The preferred cleaner is happy because they've got 3 hours pay for 6 - 10 minutes work. The tenant learns to take lots of happy snaps for his next experience.
A friend of mine, upon leaving the property, paid a professional cleaner to clean. And took photos. The PM said not clean enought, we are keeping $400 of your bond to pay our cleaner to do the job properly. My friend, being a barrister, ripped off an application in the federal court, not the Tribunal, alleging false and misleading conduct for the PM (company's) claims that that the bond would be returned at the end of the tenancy if the premises were returned to the pre-existing state, with wear and tear. My friend had his full bond refunded within 24 hours of serving the Application. Most tenants don't have the resources to do this, so they suffer.
 
What happens is that the sister/brother/best friend/other relative of the PM is the "preferred cleaner". the tenants cleans the property. The PM says no, that's not clean enough, bond not refundable unless it is cleaned professionally. Our cleaner can do it in three hours at $60/whatever per hour. Because it's much less hassle to agree to do that than slog it out in the Tribunal, and usually the poor sods need their bond desperately to get into the next place, the tenant agrees. The PM/s sister/boyfriend whatever gets 3 hours payment, maybe they go around and pull out that moss at the back step and pick up the scrap of paper left on the vanity and wipe the dust that's gathered since the tenant moved out, the tenant is stung again but everybody else is happy. the landlord is happy because he has a clean property. the PM is happy because once again s/he has proved his/her worth to the landlord and funnelled money to her cronies. The preferred cleaner is happy because they've got 3 hours pay for 6 - 10 minutes work. The tenant learns to take lots of happy snaps for his next experience.
A friend of mine, upon leaving the property, paid a professional cleaner to clean. And took photos. The PM said not clean enought, we are keeping $400 of your bond to pay our cleaner to do the job properly. My friend, being a barrister, ripped off an application in the federal court, not the Tribunal, alleging false and misleading conduct for the PM (company's) claims that that the bond would be returned at the end of the tenancy if the premises were returned to the pre-existing state, with wear and tear. My friend had his full bond refunded within 24 hours of serving the Application. Most tenants don't have the resources to do this, so they suffer.

I'm sure that happens just as often as the reverse when the tenant leaves it "clean enough" to justify getting the bond back, but I still spend hours doing another clean. That is my choice, so I'm not whining, but the way you spell it out, it is always the big, bad landlord ripping off the squeaky clean, innocent tenant. Pffttt!!!
 
I agree with wylie.

I'm sure that happens just as often as the reverse when the tenant leaves it "clean enough" to justify getting the bond back, but I still spend hours doing another clean.

The reason most Landlord's spend hours doing another clean, is that there is a massive disconnect between the expectations of the outgoing Tenant and what they deem to be clean, and what the expectations of the incoming Tenant and what they deem to be clean. Huge difference.

I've often thought that if you graphed the cleanliness of the property over time between tenancies, it would look like the roof of a saw tooth industrial building.....if people know what they look like.

It's at the top at the start of the tenancy when the Tenant agrees to move in. It slowly degrades during their tenure (fair wear and tear and then some) and there is a new base line when they move out. It's the Landlords who do the lifting of the standard back to the higher level, the vertical sections of the roofline if you will.

Tenant's at this stage have moved on, they no longer care about the property, their personal belongings have been moved out and they are simply looking at the dust and cobwebs on the skirting boards, the grease on the floor behind where the fridge used to be, and their attitude is meh....not my house any longer, I've only got 2 hours here before I need to start re-establishing myself. They no longer have any attachment. This changes everything.

The Landlord on the other hand, is interested in attracting a good Tenant again, and they know their expectations are slightly higher.

This dis-connect is where all of the arguments and disagreements eminate from.

Typically, most private Landlords sign off the Bond, then roll up their sleeves like wylie and I do, and go in there regardless and get it really clean....you know.....up to the higher standard where the incoming Tenant with their higher expectation goggles on are inspecting it.

What's "good enough" for the outgoing Tenant is never "good enough" for the incoming Tenant.

I can't remember the amount of times I've given back the Bond just to stop the b1tching and moaning and get the Tenant out of our hair. 3 good solid hours of a husband and wife team will usually see a normal house back to presentable level for incoming Tenants.

If you try and twist the Tenant's arm to get them to do it like they are supposed to, they'll typically moan and carry on like a pork chop and end up doing a half hearted job that isn't up to scratch anyway.

It's just not worth dealing with outgoing residential Tenants at that stage.....ignoring of course that the vast weight of the law is on their side anyway.....Landlord's are pushing **** uphill all the way.

Tenants will gladly argue and carry on for way longer than it takes to actually do the job. They'll spend days and days writing letters and taking photos and documenting everything, when 2 or 3 hours of solid work would do the trick.

The way of the world unfortunately. Evidence...photos, paperwork.
 
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Money for tricks - the case of the disappearing bond

I only wanted to say that you can't stereotype the situation - could be lazy tenant, perfectionist landlord, greedy/devious Private Manager, easy going landlord, super clean tenant (I have had a few and am grateful) - each situation is different and whilst I too have had my share of going in and cleaning up after tenants, and paying cleaners to do it, I know also that there are tenants out there being exploited. The downside of experience may be cynicism. But each situation should be looked at on its own merits and although you as a PM might not exploit tenants, the reality is that some do and the scenario I have given above shows how PM's are perfectly poised to act in the way the poster of the thread complained.
 
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I only wanted to say that you can't stereotype the situation - could be lazy tenant, perfectionist landlord, greedy/devious Private Manager, easy going landlord, super clean tenant (I have had a few and am grateful) - each situation is different and whilst I too have had my share of going in and cleaning up after tenants, and paying cleaners to do it, I know also that there are tenants out there being exploited. The downside of experience may be cynicism. But each situation should be looked at on its own merits and although you as a PM might not exploit tenants, the reality is that some do and the scenario I have given above shows how PM's are perfectly poised to act in the way the poster of the thread complained.

We have had a fun week.
One property is 11 units of furnished bachelor suites. We are signing in a new tenant, and a current tenant is being curious. He gives me a piece of cake with fruit sauce. Then he comes over to where Rob is signing the new tenant, and brings him a piece. We introduce him to the new tenant, and a few minutes he has a piece of cake.
Another property we are considered 'slum landlords'. We are called this several times yesterday, by this tenant. Not a happy camper as we are taking applicants thru the property.Of course they have paid on only half of last months rent, and refused to pay this month. It seems when we provide them with a washer and dryer, they may consider paying their rent. We calmly inform them a washer and dryer is not on their lease...and then we handed them their "we will not renew " for end of June. We also handed them their "tribunal hearing papers for mid June".
When we are filling out the hearing papers, they said we should ask for termination of the tenancy. We say 'no thanks', we aren't playing that game. As soon as we try to evict, they can appeal. The lease will automatically expire end of June.We will go after the monies owing thru court.

Another tenant moved out. She cleaned she told us.
After a grocery bag full of dog hair, and cleaning the stove burners, we consider it ready for the next tenant.
As Dazz said..tenant incoming clean, is very different than tenant outgoing clean.
 
That is an interesting experience Kathryn d. One set of tenants being nice to you and treating you well, and another set calling you 'slum lords'...
I guess people come from all walks of life, and personalities can be so different. As much as there are different opinions of what is 'clean' (very subjective isn't it :rolleyes:) there are probably just as much variation in peoples expectations of what they 'deserve', expectations of what the tenant and landlord responsibilities differ greatly too. You seem like you handled the situation very well, and have very clear boundaries organized. The more cut and dry you make those boundaries the better.

I'm a little amazed that you allow pets though, especially in a complex/units. A bag of dog hair.... ewwwww.
 
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