Last minute jitters on wraps

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From: Anonymous


I have been reading and hearing alot about this wrapping property scenario.
I am just about to have a go and have some last minute jitters.

Could any body tell me from experience whether they have had any troubles re buying the right price property-finding so called tennants etc. I am considering victoria. Is the market Fished out?
Wrapping versus rental what are the fors and againsts.
Comments would be appreciated
 
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Reply: 1
From: Anonymous



To any potential wrappers or newbie wrappers
out there, that would like some assistance.

Email me privately, I am a full time wrapper and happy to help & point you in the right direction.

John

[email protected]
 
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Reply: 1.1
From: Anonymous


sniff , sniff
 
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Reply: 1.1.1
From: The Husband


I posted a few questions on different boards (using different email addresses) regarding wraps and got several anonymous emails.

There is someone out there that sends annoying emails to everyone that mentions the word 'wrap'. He is trying to sell Rick's wrap pack and obviously receives a commission out of it. Has anyone else received it?

I wonder if it was the same person that spammed everyone posting on the John Burley forum with 'freestyler' advertising. It caused a bit of a fuss over there.

(I am not saying that Rick or freestylers endorsed this)
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1
From: Lewis O'Brien


On the contrary, most wrappers report a surplus of potential purchasers.

Property prices are increasing which means that you have to look a little harder to find properties at a good price though.

The real problem is finding a reliable and efficient lender...


Lewis
FreeLawyer.com.au
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1
From: Jeremy Laws


Wrapping is not a particularly good use of business capital. Very capital intensive and a lot of work. Despite what they say, a straight out rental is a lot easier. My main criticism is that you are handing out freehold for a pittance. Seems a shame and a waste of time....
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1
From: PT Bear


Hi Jeremy,

Could you please expand on your comments. I'm currently investigating the 'wrap' concept and I'm interested to hear peoples opinions and I'd like to know why you think it's not a good use of capital.

PT_Bear

"Have fun, be successful, make lots of money, be someone who makes a difference, and above all else, don't forget the view."
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: J Parker


I'd like to add to the above comments regarding wraps. I have done a lot of research into this area and recently came very close to onselling a couple of houses using this technique. In the end, however, we decided to keep the properties as rentals for a number of reasons.

I like the concept of wraps. The technique definitely has merit and, for those who have done it successfully, it certainly provides good cashflow. You only need to look at people like Steve McKnight and Rick Otton to see that wraps can be made into a very profitable business. Both are astute businessmen who have seen a niche in the market and have taken it by the horns. I admire their drive and success.

Jeremy is right, however, when he states that they are a lot of work. We have spent many trips to our favoured country town, searching for the right houses, returning for pre-settlement inspections and, of late, house showings. Being over two hours drive away, it has taken up quite a few weekend days, and with three young children to lug along as well, it hasn't been smooth sailing. The picturesque trip to the Hunter gets a bit tiring after doing it a few weekends in a row!

Lewis is also spot on when he points to finance as being a major hurdle. Because the wraps industry requires a lot of borrowing (because let's face it, it's hardly worth doing wraps for a couple of properties) you will eventually hit a brick wall with lenders. It is then that wrappers need to look further afield, using private investors in joint venture partnerships etc.
Disclosure is also another grey area, as lenders will generally not lend money if your intention to wrap is disclosed when you are seeking the loan.

We found with advertising that it was easy to get the phone to ring. People find the words LOW DEPOSIT NO BANK QUALIFYING very tempting indeed. However, out of some 20 odd calls, less than half of those qualified for a wrap. Admittedly, my husband and I set a minimum deposit but you need to do this to make the whole thing profitable. We sent out application forms to those who we pre-qualified over the phone and out of these, a paltry 4 returned them. First lesson we learnt was that most of these callers suffer from apathy. You really do need to help them fill in the form over the phone, or meet them in person to go over each section. Again, due to our geographical location, we were not prepared to waste more time so most questions were answered over the phone.

Rick Otton's philosophy is that the people must REALLY love the house. The importance of this cannot be understated. After locating who we thought was a sure winner buyer they looked at the interior of the house, only to reject it. Nothing prepares you for the emotional letdown of this happening. It was very sobering indeed. My advice to people who are considering doing wraps is to get the buyers to look at the house FIRST. We made the mistake of pre-qualifying the buyers and then letting only the good prospects see the house. Perhaps if we'd opened the houses to everyone who called, we may have had better success. Who knows?

In the end, we decided that, for now, we'll rent the houses out and see what happens. As the leases near their end (and depending on the market) we may again attempt to onsell via a wrap. We have the system set up, the contacts, the paperwork. All we need are the right buyers!!

Another important thing to remember is to always have an exit strategy. Ours was to rent these houses out, as the town has a small supply of rentals and the returns are quite good at 9-11%. We will now sit on these and wait. I would have been very concerned if I'd bought, purely relying on wrapping these properties. Always have a plan B!

Property prices have been hotting up for a while now and we found that to buy anything around the $80-$100K mark (wraps work best at this price range)was getting increasingly difficult. Especially being a Sydneysider, the closest available houses in this price range were getting further and further away! This wouldn't be such a problem if you lived in other capital cities but be prepared to travel if you live in Sydney!

I don't wish to put a dampener on anyone wishing to pursue the wraps business. Just because it didn't work on my latest purchases doesn't mean it won't work for you. I have just posted a few thoughts and personal experiences that may or may not be of benefit to those considering wraps. We went into this with every intention of making it work. We weren't relying on the income from it at all, so we basically had nothing to lose by giving it a go. I certainly have no regrets putting in the time so far, as it has proved to be a terrific learning experience.
Everyone is different and that's what makes us so interesting, I suppose! Please note that we have not given up on wraps. We have just put them aside for the time being.

Our next project is a renovation and I'm planning it with great enthusiasm. Nothing like variety in investing!
Cheers, Jacque :)
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Mike .


Hi Jacque,

I'm compelled to say that I enjoyed your post very much. A wonderful insight that cuts through the hype. I agree with Jeremy that it appears to be capital intensive because the equity you put in in the form of a cash deposit cannot be put to work to create more wealth. It lies dormant until the property is re-financed to allow the tenant-buyer to take a first mortgage.

It is also a lot of work setting each wrap up but after it is setup the only work is to check your account to make sure the payments are there. Despite the difficulties, it represents the quickest escape route out of your dead-end job. Darren B did that in a couple of years. If anyone has done that with another method please tell us. You'll be instantly famous on this forum!

Regards, Mike
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Darren B


Thanks Mike. I understand what Jeremy is saying and let me say he is a gun investor. However, wraps are pretty easy, if properly set up.Let me say I do not give my houses away on a pittance. I dont sell a house for the grant only. The buyer must have a minimum of 5 grand, or I dont bother. If I can buy a house and find a buyers who put up nearly enough money, that all my capital is returned in 12 months maximum. Is this bad use of capital? Quite often I have buyers who give me enough cash, so that I have no capital tied up. In fact, I'm ahead.Is this a bad use of capital? I always harboured ambitions of doing real estate full time. For me, wrapping was the quickest path to this goal? I have rentals to, but quiet frankly, being a landlord with all that maintenance is very painful. I still do buy and holds, but I hate it when the property manager rings, because I know its not to say hello! Plus it eats into my profit. Yes, I agree, borrowing can be difficult at the start, but I assure you, once you get a track record and have 30 plus properties that are ALL positive cashflow, it gets easier and easier. You can always use money partners to joint venture. I do. I havent got a bottomless pit!
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Glenn Mott


Hi Darren,

Thanks for your input, it's good to hear the story of someone who has
done it and made it!

Would you be kind enough when you have time one day to expand on some of
your trials and tribulations??

Glenn
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: The Husband


Some quick points on wraps


You can also wrap using lease options instead of an installment contract. This gets you over the problem banks have with wraps (as it is only a lease). It is basically the same, eg buy for $100,000 sell for $120,000 with the option price decreasing over time just like a PI loan. One problem is that you can't get the FHOG, but the tenants are still entitled to rental assistance (if they qualify of course). And they can get the FHOG when they cash you out, so this may assist in them cashing you out early!

And why bother wrapping somewhere far from where you live? You can wrap in Sydney. Growth is faster (?) so they will cash you out quicker. And the profits are much better. eg wrap one $300,000 house instead of 3 $100,000 houses = less work.

Hubby
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2
From: Geoff Whitfield


Jacques,

Can I put a gold star on this post?

Thanks for the wonderful contribution, and the insight into the potential difficulties.

Geoff
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1
From: Mike .


Hi Darren,

Good to hear from you. Your story got a good reaction on this forum and a UK forum I posted it to. I wish you would follow up with a CD or audio cassette.

I'm still tossing up whether to give it a go and your experiences on CD could be just the extra motivation I need to give it a whirl. My procrastination stems from the fact that I work full-time. The upside is I get 4 or 5 days off in a row because of the 12 hour shift work.

Say you'll do it, please.

Regards, Mike
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1
From: Felicity W.


I've enjoyed this thread immensely! I'm in that horrible place called limbo, where I've started buying houses to wrap, but haven't completed a transaction yet. So it's good to get some ideas on what might or might not happen.
And Jacque, I have the same exit strategy - I can always rent!
Keep smiling
Felicity :cool:
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2
From: Dianne Ferrara


Hi Darren,

nice to hear an inspirational story on wraps. I am about to take the plunge
sooon!


Di
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1
From: Rick Otton


hi Guys...
here's some thoughts

with all businesses there is a system, the pain is learning the system and how fast you can learn it to reduce the pain and get to the gain,that is why darren says quite rightly it gets easier and easier.

if you use the "sellers" funds to fund your deposits or use "private investor" funds or take control of sellers "existing loans" you move away from the 'tied up capital" issue very quickly,

if you use the positive cash flow on low growth properties wisely they can pay the holding costs on high growth properties,

Like Darren I also do wraps for a living but you know I found out years ago if you go to Italy and you've only got so long to see the sights you either get a guide to get to where you want to get to quickly or you stumble around until you run out of time and money......

Also if your going to renovate houses, buy and hold houses, build houses or race cars etc hang out with the people who do what you want to do and they'll help you avoid some of the bumps.

I one thing I reckon that has cost me more money in this business over the years than anything else would be ...the lack of knowing.

rick otton / www.creativerealestate.com.au
 
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