Marriage and Money

[GoAnna!]

I just love property but the topic I love most is psychology. Now I am pretty much am amateur but I find it fascinating to research what makes a person tick, how they construct their reality, how this affects their focus and interpretation on the life around them, and therefore the decision they make and their reactions to events in their life. The thing about psychology is that it can usually only predict what a group of people will tend to do not what an individual will do. So this makes for lots of interesting discussions and no concrete conclusions.

From previous threads on this forum it seems that the two most polarising topics and the beliefs around marriage and money - not necessarily combined. What are your underlying beliefs on each? Why do you think that way? Would you like to change it? Is there a relationship between your beliefs on money and your beliefs on marriage (or long term committed relationship)

My background which effects my own beliefs are:

Bought up poor in wealthy suburb
Parents married for life
Worked in crisis telephone counseling, community support services, HR, customer service, local government, banking, university and tourism.
BA majoring in literature and Chinese (did best in stats)
Been with GoMichael since 1989 (married 1999)
Two kids
Live in inner Melbourne with broad demographics including socio economic, cultural background, and sexual orientation. I guess it would be seen as socially progressive.

In terms of money I believe that you do create your own destiny but early influences make a HUGE difference more so than economic status. I suspect I would be in a very different place right now had I been poor in a poor area. I knew extremely wealthy on a first name basis and they were enormously influential in terms of how I perceived the wealthy and the pursuit of money.

So my beliefs that control the decisions in my life are:

Life is short – taking no risks is the biggest risk of all. We all know how the story ends, we just don’t know when. I don’t want to miss out. I want to enjoy life. I see the risks, and I don’t unnecessarily seek them out (no base jumping for me!) but I don’t avoid them either as they are the flip side of all the things I treasure most in life.

I think long and hard before I commit to something because I don’t undertake it lightly. Once I decide to commit I don’t contemplate failure. I put all my energy into ensuring that it is a success. I don’t blame. I don’t look for excuses. I focus on what I can do to create the life I want. So far it’s working for me (and my marriage, children and wealth).

 

[Xenia]

Thanks for sharing Anna,

I believe that a success-oriented mindset affects all areas of a persons life. On the upper scale a person would have perfect relationships or the ability to attract the right parter, perfect health and financially independent.

On the lower part of the scale (the absence of a success oriented mindset) a person would be fat, stupid and broke

I am somewhere in the middle of that scale but always striving to reach the top

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

What are your underlying beliefs on each?

Money - a tool to be used as part of my desire to achieve financial independence. Money does not equal freedom, rather it buys me the freedom that I crave.

Marriage - a complete waste of time, money and resources. I don't see the point in having a piece of paper that says I am committed to a long term relationship when I know that I would be more than willing to commit without the need for my union to be recognised legally by the state.

Why do you think that way?

Money - dunno, never really thought about it. I too grew up poor, but in a working class environment. Money has never really been a big drawcard in my life. I'm naturally non-materialistic, so I do not *need* a big house and fancy cars and all that stuff.

Marriage - watched mum go through two horrible marriages (she is now married to the second most awesome bloke ever in history ever (first is my dido) so I developed a bad taste for marriage very early on in life. My brother is married and has one kid, with at least another one to come and he wouldn't have it any other way - go figure. As stated in another thread, I pretty much made the choice never to marry or have children when I was 12 and thousands of hours of reflection on the issues over the last 21 years has done little to change that. In fact a disastrous relationship has only strengthened my resolve on the matter.

Would you like to change it?

Money - no.

Marriage - no.

Is there a relationship between your beliefs on money and your beliefs on marriage (or long term committed relationship)

Not as such, no. Although I strongly believe that assets should be protected from attack in the case of divorce. That goes for both men and women. I do not understand the mindset that everything should automatically be split 50/50 in a divorce, the reality is never that simple. Frankly, I do not believe the positives of a long term relationship - marriage or de facto - outweigh the realities of what happens when things go bad.

I am the same as you GoAnna - when it comes to doing something, I put in 100% and give it the best I have, but I can't control the whims of a partner (especially when said partners thought processes are ruled by emotion not logic) and frankly, that's not a gamble I'm willing to take. It's one that I took and wow, it didn't just crash and burn, it took out an entire city. Once bitten, twice shy as they say.

I enjoy being single, I'm quite happy to describe myself as a loner, so it's not like I desperately want to meet someone, so I figure I'm lucky in that regard. I spent some time with a young lady eariler this year and came to the conclusion very quickly that I wasn't interested in a relationship and was much happier single.

Mark

 

[GoAnna!]

I didn't always believe in marriage for myself. (What others did was never my concern.) If I had not met some-one who shared the same values and similar dreams I would not have married. Having children outside of a commited relationship is not something I ever contemplated. I strongly believe that children ideally have two involved loving parents in a long term stable relationship. To me there is no bigger commitment than children. It's the only one you can't undo.

I was not the kind of girl who dreamed of diamond rings, white wedding dresses and babies. I did not belive in "the one". I didn't buy the hollywood version of romance. I think it sets up unrealistic expectations.

I do like companionship. I don't see the point of material success if I have no-one to share it with. Our marriage vows included a promise to support each others individual dreams and to be each others unreasonable friend. I guess for me marriage brought the public legal position in line with the private reality.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

I strongly believe that children ideally have two involved loving parents in a long term stable relationship. To me there is no bigger commitment than children. It's the only one you can't undo.

Amen to that!

I don't see the point of material success if I have no-one to share it with.

I don't understand this thought process. If I didn't develop 'material success' (my understanding of this being accumulating assets in order to achieve financial independence) because I'm single, then I'd be stuck working for 40+ years. Bugger that nonsense. But then at the same time, I do give money to charity, so maybe that can be considered sharing my material success?

Mark

 

[GreatPig]

With money, my thoughts are similar to Mark's. Money is not the end goal, but it provides the freedom to follow your own path.

I was born on a farm in NZ, where my parents were never wealthy but not poor either. We always had the essentials, but there were hand-me-down clothes, recycled toys, etc. When I went to university, money was always tight. I rarely had much more than what covered costs, and even had to borrow a bit from my parents one year. Those were amongst the best days of my life though. If anything, life since then, where there's been a lot of focus on earning an income, tax crap, and so on, has added to the stress more than the enjoyment. I can easy understand why some people throw it all in for an alternative lifestyle.

For marriage, I've never been a big believer in it, again for the reasons Mark indicated. I'm married now, but that was more because my (now) wife wanted it. I didn't really care either way. We just did the quick registry marriage with a few photos (it's my wife's second marriage anyway), so it didn't cost much or involve much planning. I'm also not into religion, so wouldn't have wanted a church marriage (and my wife is Asian and not into Christian religions). Is she my perfect partner? Who knows, but we've been married nearly 10 years now and still get on very well (despite disagreeing on practically everything ). I'm also not a believer in the one Mr/Ms Right for everyone thing, and believe there are probably lots of women out there that I could be happily married (or not) to. Do I think it will last? I certainly hope so, and live every day under the assumption that it will.

Regarding the enjoyment of sharing thing, to me that's totally unrelated to marriage. Marriage is the legal contract, and it's perfectly possible to have a partner to share things with without that legal contract. Comparing being single to being a couple is a totally separate discussion.

GP

 

[GoAnna!]

Amen to that!



I don't understand this thought process. If I didn't develop 'material success' (my understanding of this being accumulating assets in order to achieve financial independence) because I'm single, then I'd be stuck working for 40+ years. Bugger that nonsense. But then at the same time, I do give moeny to charity, so maybe that can be considered sharing my material success?

Mark

Surely the partner would be contributing and therefore speed up the process? Children do throw a spanner in the works that for sure but given we have created about 75% of our wealth since having children they don't totally hold one back. Actually they have forced me to be better at delegating and be less of a control freak.

Why would you need to work for 40 plus years because you have a family

I could not have done without Michael and vice versa. We have very different skill sets and there can be an economy of scale. The elecricity bill in the same whether one person is sitting in the room or two. Two people only need one PPOR.

But I guess the biggest thing for me is the emotional support I get from a partner who believes in me (makes me way braver).

I am not saying you should do this because its obviously not right for you but don't discount that it could be the right choice for some-one else.

 

[GoAnna!]

By marriage I mean long term commited partnership. I wasn't trying to bring up a pro or con marriage argument. Obviously what constitutes a long term commited relationship will differ widely. I lived for ten years with Michael before we married. For me personally there is a difference.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Why would you need to work for 40 plus years because you have a family

What I meant was that this thought process seems (to me) like 'What's the point of achieving financial independence if you aren't in a relationship?'. That is, if someone is single, why would they bother investing? That's where the working for 40 years comes from - I as a single person would work for 40 years because I don't invest.

Mark

 

[Jodie701]

Bought up in the poorest suburb area.
Lived quiet well until my parents divorced when I was 8.
Then raised poor by my mum on a single parents pension.

From a young age, I've always been fasinated with money. With the actual stuff, rather then what it can buy. I've always just like to hold it or see the account balance, without ever knowing what to do with it. I'm not good at spending it as I prefer to keep it and grow more, lol.
I watched my mother struggle and learnt that I never ever want to live like that on a pension. I watched my mum fall apart after the divorce and learnt to take relationships seriously. I vowed to remain single unless I found the "perfect" person which I never thought exsisted, until I met my hubby who is every bit perfect (and still is ).
I believe in marriage for life and believe in going forwards in life, not backwards (like people do with personal debt for consumables).

 

[Aaron Sice]

nice post GoAnna - kudos!

my motivation when i was younger was "failure is not an option". i worked hard to achieve the best and would not compromise. i earned a hard a-r-s-e reputation because of this - the outcome must never be compromised regardless of prior processes.

however, with investing - one must learn that failure is "normal" and not to be frowned upon like "failing school" etc. as long as the outcome over your chosen investment period is positive then you haven't failed - ie you can't view each investment as a plus or minus, rather you must have a set investment timeframe and work to achieve the best result with as little or as many investements as your investment plan allows.

and as long as your partner understands that failure is measured across a timeframe and not case by case, then i think it's a lot easier to accept that bad trade or dog IP.

 

[BayView]

For both the money mindset and the marriage mindset to work, I think both partners need to be on the same page.

It's no fun when one is a rabid consumer and the other is a saver and so on.

My wife and I are products of no-money-ever-in-their-lives pensioners who lived in poorer areas, basic schooling, no flash holidays etc.

We've had to find our own way, and we are both driven. This is a good match. Been married 14 years.

I am the more aggressive one when it comes to improving our financial lives, but my wife is 100% supportive.

 

[Rob Williams]

We've had to find our own way, and we are both driven. This is a good match. Been married 14 years.

I am the more aggressive one when it comes to improving our financial lives, but my wife is 100% supportive.

Congratulations! I aspire to finding a relationship like yours. Your comments give me hope

 

[pendo]

Good thread Go Anna

My old man always had a funny attitude to money and success.
He still at the age of 80 says that anyone who gets to be wealthy either found luck or cheated in some way.

You know the sort, 'money's not important', type of utterances.
Silly thing about my old man is that he is very good at managing money. He never achieved wealth, but never struggled either.

He never seemed to get the idea if you work towards something diligently, then success, luck or whatever you want to call it, will come to those who persist.
I always said to him that I would hate to live in his head.
My brother says of him that it comes with being a Gemini

I've been married 28 years this month. Two grown up kids and two Grand Kids and I turn 50 next year.
My parents are still married after 56 years.

By and large as Marc says, you need to be on the same page, otherwise you are forever pushing the proverbial uphill. All that achieves is to sap your energy.
Investing issues have never been in conflict with us, and two heads is way better than one.

So if you are going to get married, make sure you both regard money and wealth as very important, not all important, but very important.

 

[GoAnna!]

What I meant was that this thought process seems (to me) like 'What's the point of achieving financial independence if you aren't in a relationship?'. That is, if someone is single, why would they bother investing? That's where the working for 40 years comes from - I as a single person would work for 40 years because I don't invest.

Mark

I have no idea what other people need so I wasn't commenting on your life or anyone else's. But I am an expert on what I need. For me personsonally the thought of making good money and coming home....to an empty house.....would make my financial achievements feel hollow. A relationship without money on the other hand would not make me feel hollow but it would make spending my time as I choose more difficult and add a great deal more stress (I know I lived that as a child with my parents). Money for me gives me the freedom to live as I wish and helpwhom or what I choose.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Money for me gives me the freedom to live as I wish and help or what whom I choose.

Me too!

Mark

 

[ethereal]

An interesting thread GoAnna.

For me money is primarily good for trading for time and freedom.
I was engaged to my husband at the age of 17. I had just finished school and about to start uni, he was unemployed with hair down to his waist and one bag of clothes his only belongings. We were happy because with no responsibilities we didn't need money to enjoy life, we had youth and health.

We both realised that this was not a 'forever' state to be in and that we needed some financial base to have a decent life in the longer term. We both worked in very crappy jobs to pay for our study. I washed dishes, waitressed, served drinks, tutored and nannied. He stacked shelves, gardened, and patched fetilizer bags. We had no tv for a while so we read papers. I always was drawn to the finance section and particularly liked reading Noel Whittaker's comments. Hubby liked the realestate section.
We dreamed of buying houses long before it became a real possibility. I got talking to a wealthy share investor on holidays when I was about 19. We'd been saving for a big OS adventure, but I convinved hubby to let me buy shares with this. He was all for it and so we did. Thanks to that we still went OS for a year and came back with enough for a good deposit on a house and 2 cars. That alone convinced us that there were easier ways to make money than working your butt off in a job until you drop.

Now thanks to investing I don't have to work and can look after our kids and spend my days as I please. Yesterday I spent all day making cupcakes with various floral icing decorations. Today I have been having a great time sharing them with friends (was having a Martha Stewart moment). Hubby likes his work as a graphic designer but has a flexible arrangement where he can take time out to do other things including work on our IP's.

For us, we have more wealth than ever but are less free than when we had nothing at all because we have the responsibility of children and the desire to have enough assets to generate passive income for us to live on before the age of 40. We are pretty laid back people and although we'd be capable of running a good business and have discussed it often, we figure the stress and the hours go against our beliefs about money buying time and freedom. Same goes for a heavy duty 'career'.

We have very similar views on most things money and I think this may have a lot to do with the fact that we met so young and grew our ideas together. This doesn't explain all the other areas where we bang heads though.

Louise

 

[josko]

Money - a tool to be used as part of my desire to achieve financial independence. Money does not equal freedom, rather it buys me the freedom that I crave.

Marriage - a complete waste of time, money and resources. I don't see the point in having a piece of paper that says I am committed to a long term relationship when I know that I would be more than willing to commit without the need for my union to be recognised legally by the state.

Mark

I agree with the money part. Money makes life alot easier.

As an atheist I do not believe in Marriage as an Institution or commitment before God. I do however believe that as far as a commitment before friends and family and the two people involved, it is a binding contract.

Humans have been performing cermonies since the age of dawn. It is only "human", that we need the ACT of ceremony to confirm the importance of what we are doing or believe in.

Regards JO

 

[sue78]

Money - not really important but then something everyone can't live without. I know people that talk about money all the time, love money, lavishes on themselves yet extremely stingy and compare wealth and it's just one of those topics I hate.

We are very generous with money even when we can't afford to be. We always give a lot and I used to be disappointed when we received nothing in return but now I know not to expect anything. Why? because you keep giving for what you have already been blessed with. When i think about it, there has been some difficult times but overall we have been so blessed and fortunate. So we must be doing something right.

Marriage - I am a romantic. I always thought I'd marry the first boyfriend or who i lost my virginity to. It didn't happen but I'm still a romantic. Everything is sacred, the wedding, the vowels in front of family and friends...it's all wonderful memories that I will cherish until the day I die.

People that say they want to make the most of life, live life to the fullest yet never want kids and never get married, well I think that's a real shame coz those are the best things that has ever happen to me. But kids is a huge commitment and with divorce rates so high nowadays, I can see how marriage is questionable.

I have friends where 1 party doesn't marriage and one does. It makes the other person doubt the love. Something I don't really understand. My husband loves me more than anything in the world and would do anything for me and vice versa coz when you love someone, you want them to be happy. See I am a romantic...maybe my thoughts are just too simple?

if I died tomorrow, I wouldn't have any regrets coz I really have lived my life to the fullest just that I can't bear to leave my children. I really hope I can live to as old as possible now so i can see them grow up and the grand kids grow up. It's weird, with children now I'm not afraid of aging coz there's so much to look forward to. Prior to having kids, if death was upon me, I would be fine. Even though now I'm still not afraid of it.

I think I am one of those people that are happiest living for others rather than for myself coz when the people I love are happy then I'm happy. Life isn't rewarding when it's just all about you.

 

[sue78]

I'm also not a believer in the one Mr/Ms Right for everyone thing, and believe there are probably lots of women out there that I could be happily married (or not) to. Do I think it will last? I certainly hope so, and live every day under the assumption that it will.

If my husband said that to me after spending a whole life time with him, I think I will just be completely devastated but he's already said that he will want to spend an eternity in heaven with me too I'm not so sure about that. I am gonna party when i get to heaven