Metropole properties

always_learning said:
No, I wouldn't/couldn't do it again. Mr AL (Mr "lets invest") is very dissapointed and Mrs AL (Mrs "work hard save money") hasn't stopped saying "I told you so". :(

Sorry to hear that. Was it because of the market being slow or -ve or because feasibility of the project wasn't accurate enough?

Regards,

James.
 
It is true the market is slow, the development popped out of the pipeline at a bad time. As for the accuracy and expections contained in the feasibility study, I should leave that for Micheal to respond.
 
Hi AL,
Have enjoyed reading this post especially your honest & open opinions. Nice touch that you don't rubbish Michael Yardley & his team, but it would be nice if Michael or someone from Metropole expand where AL left off. So Michael please fill in the gaps that AL left out, it would be much appreciated.


Regards Tony.

PS. Not trying to be malicious towards Michael Yardley or his team,but rather coming from a viewpoint of further understanding what went wrong in this case.
If Metropole did miscalculate something what does a progressive, honest company like Metropole do to remedy the situation & keep a customer as happy as possible?
 
Quite simply the staff Metropole's dont deserve to be rubbished. For example the property management team have really done a really good job trying to find a tenant since handover and keeping me informed of progress.
 
Hi AL,
I assume from your last post that your townhouses are vacant? So i guess your really hurting right about now? Hope i'm wrong for your sake & that all ends well for you.

I think you also said that you planned on selling one of the properties & i guess that's also off the agenda until prices improve?

Just out of curiosity, what does the other investor think of all this?

Regards Tony
 
Sorry to hear of this AL and I am sure many will benefit from your honesty.
I have a couple of questions based on your previous posts but there are many more questions that I am sure you have addressed for yourself outside of your public comments.

AL firstly you state that costs from the initial feasibility study have escalated around 8%, some of this is due to unforeseeable reasons (muddy soil at the back), some of it appears that the estimated costs for some components where optimistically low.

Yet, you also state that: Big money (land/site purchase, construction costs) do not go thru Metropole's accounts, only small fees such as $300 soil tests

So the $300.00 small Metropole soil test fee did not indicate this ?

What other estimated costs in your opinion where optimistically low ?

You also stated: Metropole charges 5% for a development, fine, you and Micheal mentioned this was the fee for project management and you were obviously happy with that. However, 5% project management and 8% blowout in costs mean that 13% in costs alone eats along way into the profitability of a small project, now add in the time blowout and the significance of that in regard to the way the market has changed in that period and you are probably already somewhere you don’t want to be.

What of the builder and all other subcontractors?
Were they also sourced by Metropole?
If they were then I imagine Metropole also gets a cut and/or places some sort of premium on their fees. That is fine and to be expected as long as that was explained to you up front.

Interesting that Metropole also sourced the property for you although you stated you did not have to buy it (obviously) did they place any premium or fee for sourcing the property with DA/BA permits in place?

“I think Micheal would agree with me that that in regard to the projects full cost, length and final values I could only report bad and disappointing news”.

For all this AL, I truly feel for you, it is a very disappointing result for you first small development.
I am also sorry as the feel of this post comes across as –ve toward Metropole as you still appear to stand by them….. but upon rereading the thread several times I can’t help that feeling.
Timing as well as costs are integral to any development or project, employing someone who has a proven record of controlling these factors is critical.
Taking on too much at any one time is a typical and commonplace factor in seeing someone who has a good track record come unstuck, whether that is what the case is here I really don’t know.
It is a great pity to hear you say you wouldn’t do it again based on this experience.
I really don’t expect Metropole or Micheal to respond to this thread and good on them if they do, and I really can’t offer anything in the way turning this situation around, sorry AL.
Astroboy.
 
And I just came across this, I am assuming this applies to the same property

"I have just been advised that my units in Melbournes outer seaside location have dropped by around -15% ($305K -> $260K) in the last 4-5months."

Was it Metropole that advised 305K on completion in Nov 2003 and was that consistent with similar properties marketed *at that time* ?
ab
 
I'll add a point to Astroboy's comments.

I seem to remember AL posting in January that things would be completed in February- and that he was quite disappointed by the delay.

But actual completion presumably took place in May (or perhaps April).

For a project apparently so close to completion, I find the time blowout a bit difficult to uinderstand.
 
Hi Michael,

Ive noticed (from your member profile) that youve already read this thread numerous times ... Any reason youve refrained from replying to the questions posed?

Can you alleviate some of our concerns regarding the development process and your involvement?

Best wishes,

Jamie.
 
Jamie said:
Hi Michael,

Ive noticed (from your member profile) that youve already read this thread numerous times ... Any reason youve refrained from replying to the questions posed?

Can you alleviate some of our concerns regarding the development process and your involvement?

Best wishes,

Jamie.

Yes Jamie I have read the post and have been tempted to reply. Of course I would like to explain the position further, but was loath to discuss someone else's private business.

2 days ago I drafted a post to the forum and emailed it to AL to get his approval to post it publically. As I have not received a reply from him
 
I have given my approval for MY to post his version of the project. I feel troubled to comment further in public about this project until the outcome is decided.
 
"...until the outcome is decided"? Sounds like a dispute.
About a year ago Metropole did a feasibility study for me. My gut feeling was that their end values were overstated and their costs were understated. In addition they suggested me that a small margin (>20%) was acceptable considering the risk. I declined and I'm glad I did.
AL, please let us know how it works out.
 
HowDo said:
"...until the outcome is decided"? Sounds like a dispute.
About a year ago Metropole did a feasibility study for me. My gut feeling was that their end values were overstated and their costs were understated. In addition they suggested me that a small margin (>20%) was acceptable considering the risk. I declined and I'm glad I did.
AL, please let us know how it works out.

There is clearly no dispute, I have been in contact with AL twice by email today and our property managers are still working for him as are our recommeded sales agents.

Please don't jump to conclusions.Metropole has been around for a long time and is not one of the cowboys in the industry. We have grown to the size that we are becuase we usually get things right and becuae we DO care about our clients.
 
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In response to the request for more details and with AL’s permission I will give you a short précis of the project as I see it.

If we all use this as an exercise in understanding how to do due diligence in development projects this could be a useful exercise.

In January 2003 I found a development site for sale for $385,000 with permits for 3 townhouses.

We negotiated the price down to $345,000 by dealing directly with the vendor. The fact that this was below market value at the time was confirmed by 3 other sales in the same street in the ensuing 4 months.

These were for run down houses on similar or smaller size land all within 150mts of our block. All sold for more than we paid for the block with the certainty of permits. All 3 are still in council waiting for their development approval.

My original feasibility study suggested completion of the project by December 2003 with a fair profit margin. I should point out that a feasibility study is just that. Is the project feasible or viable? It is not a budget.

The end values for the units were based on figures achieved for recent sales in the area which were given to the client and were confirmed by local agents.

Once the site was purchased we organised working drawings and engineering drawings.

Unfortunately the soil test showed that we were basically sitting on “quick sand.” It was impossible for the drill to hit firm ground. The area of Patterson Lakes is well known for being swampy, but I had taken comfort from recent construction jobs 2 doors to the south and 15 doors to the north not having problems.

It was impossible to be aware of the problem prior to purchasing this property.

This difficult soil problem immediately added over $30,000 to the budget and delayed commencement of the project by over 3 months. During this time construction costs also rose due to our property boom.

Fortunately the property market had improved in the area and it looked like rising end values would easily cover the increased cost.

Since Xmas the market value of the end properties dropped by 15% or so making the project marginal. Imagine what losing $150,000 in end value does to the profitability. Where our initial end values realistic?

According to 3 local agencies the answer is yes. The final value of each of the units was in the order of $300,000 meaning they would appeal to the first home buyer or investor. The problem is both these types of buyers are out of the market at present.

Originally our clients were hoping to hold all 3 units as long term investments and we always recommend this back up strategy to protect from market fluctuations.

You asked what did Metropole do?

Firstly we did not charge the full 5% fee we normally charge. This was a decision we made at the beginning of the project to make it more viable.
Secondly we got one of our builders to construct the project AT COST plus the builder’s wages. He made no profit on the job. This saved our clients in the order of $40,000. It would be impossible to build this project at this cost again and AL recognises this.

Further I contributed funds to a number of items to keep costs down and improve the quality. For example I personally decided to tile the entry porches and paid for this out of pocket to make the project look better.

At the end of the project there was about $10,000 in variations cost overruns due to various factors. We had allowed a sum for contingencies and the builder was not able to bare these extra costs as he was doing the job at cost.

Variations /costs overruns of 2.5% of the contract price are not bad as anyone who has built would be aware.

If AL was to keep the dwellings in the long term he would do well as it would be impossible to replace them today at the cost he paid for them. The problem is if one must sell, this puts AL in an awkward position.

The lessons- do your due diligence carefully. Chose an experienced development manager and do not attempt to trade property in a falling market.

Why haven’t the clients in our 64 other projects sprung to our defense and said how good we are? As far as I know, only one other current client is a participant on this forum.
 
Sounds like Metropole was more than fair to me!

I guess the take home lesson is that the flip side of the potential for the higher return development provides is the greater risk of unforseen cost overruns and delays...

There's generally a direct correlation between risk and return ;)

Michael Yardney said:
In response to the request for more details and with AL’s permission I will give you a short précis of the project as I see it.

If we all use this as an exercise in understanding how to do due diligence in development projects this could be a useful exercise.

In January 2003 I found a development site for sale for $385,000 with permits for 3 townhouses.

We negotiated the price down to $345,000 by dealing directly with the vendor. The fact that this was below market value at the time was confirmed by 3 other sales in the same street in the ensuing 4 months.

These were for run down houses on similar or smaller size land all within 150mts of our block. All sold for more than we paid for the block with the certainty of permits. All 3 are still in council waiting for their development approval.

My original feasibility study suggested completion of the project by December 2003 with a fair profit margin. I should point out that a feasibility study is just that. Is the project feasible or viable? It is not a budget.

The end values for the units were based on figures achieved for recent sales in the area which were given to the client and were confirmed by local agents.

Once the site was purchased we organised working drawings and engineering drawings.

Unfortunately the soil test showed that we were basically sitting on “quick sand.” It was impossible for the drill to hit firm ground. The area of Patterson Lakes is well known for being swampy, but I had taken comfort from recent construction jobs 2 doors to the south and 15 doors to the north not having problems.

It was impossible to be aware of the problem prior to purchasing this property.

This difficult soil problem immediately added over $30,000 to the budget and delayed commencement of the project by over 3 months. During this time construction costs also rose due to our property boom.

Fortunately the property market had improved in the area and it looked like rising end values would easily cover the increased cost.

Since Xmas the market value of the end properties dropped by 15% or so making the project marginal. Imagine what losing $150,000 in end value does to the profitability. Where our initial end values realistic?

According to 3 local agencies the answer is yes. The final value of each of the units was in the order of $300,000 meaning they would appeal to the first home buyer or investor. The problem is both these types of buyers are out of the market at present.

Originally our clients were hoping to hold all 3 units as long term investments and we always recommend this back up strategy to protect from market fluctuations.

You asked what did Metropole do?

Firstly we did not charge the full 5% fee we normally charge. This was a decision we made at the beginning of the project to make it more viable.
Secondly we got one of our builders to construct the project AT COST plus the builder’s wages. He made no profit on the job. This saved our clients in the order of $40,000. It would be impossible to build this project at this cost again and AL recognises this.

Further I contributed funds to a number of items to keep costs down and improve the quality. For example I personally decided to tile the entry porches and paid for this out of pocket to make the project look better.

At the end of the project there was about $10,000 in variations cost overruns due to various factors. We had allowed a sum for contingencies and the builder was not able to bare these extra costs as he was doing the job at cost.

Variations /costs overruns of 2.5% of the contract price are not bad as anyone who has built would be aware.

If AL was to keep the dwellings in the long term he would do well as it would be impossible to replace them today at the cost he paid for them. The problem is if one must sell, this puts AL in an awkward position.

The lessons- do your due diligence carefully. Chose an experienced development manager and do not attempt to trade property in a falling market.

Why haven’t the clients in our 64 other projects sprung to our defense and said how good we are? As far as I know, only one other current client is a participant on this forum.
 
Thankyou for the effort of the detailed reply Micheal. Most would have dodged it. I appreciate the fact that you couldn't respond without AL's prior consent. It would seem you went to considerable lengths to achieve an equitable outcome.
ab
 
astroboy said:
Thankyou for the effort of the detailed reply Micheal. Most would have dodged it. I appreciate the fact that you couldn't respond without AL's prior consent. It would seem you went to considerable lengths to achieve an equitable outcome.
ab

I'm sure that there are always 2 sides to the story. If you ask AL he may well have some minor gripes or think we should have done this or that.

He has been very polite and correct and I believe that is the best way to be in a public forum. It would be inappropriate to be any other way.

I know that at one stage there was a concern about the quality of the construction, but this was a 3rd hand report he recieved.(One of the problems being overseas) When I sent multiple digital photos, it wasn't as had been imagined.

When doing a development there is always a strugle between PRICE, QUALITY & TIME.

If you want a better quality it takes longer and costs more and vice versa.

We got the buildings completed for a great price and at an appropriate quality for the area.

Anyway... Enough said.
 
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I don't want to drag this out but I have a question...

Is it possible to put a clause in the contract of sale that it will go unconditional upon suitable results from a soils test being conducted? A bit like doing a pest inspection. Generally soil tests have a decent turn around but I wonder if this would have caused the vendor to not sign the contract.

Just a thought.

Thanks to both AL and MY for your frank contribution to this thread - this has been a great learning experience.

Ecogirl
 
Michael,

could you give some details as to how the wet ground problem was overcome please.

Were you able to peer it, if so how deep did you have to go?

My friend has purchased a block of land in a new subdivision and I believe he may have to do this. ( I would not have bought it as I have no idea of the costs or difficulty involved)

thanks
 
Ecogirl said:
I don't want to drag this out but I have a question...

Is it possible to put a clause in the contract of sale that it will go unconditional upon suitable results from a soils test being conducted? A bit like doing a pest inspection. Generally soil tests have a decent turn around but I wonder if this would have caused the vendor to not sign the contract.

Just a thought.

Thanks to both AL and MY for your frank contribution to this thread - this has been a great learning experience.

Ecogirl

Of course you can put any clause in a contract of sale. The question is whether the vendor would accept it.

The bottom line is, it is not a condition I have heard of being used or accepetd by vendors

As we are involved in a lot of building jobs we tend to know the "general" soil conditions in an area.

Lets use this as a "learning experience " as you say and I will give some examples.

AL's situation was the worst soil conditions I ever came across.

Where AL's site was situated, it is known as a swampy area so we expected some minor issues. The whole are is built on as it is an old established area. It was not a new estate.New construction had occurred 2 doors away 6 months before- designed by the same architect and engineers without the same problems. Other newish constructions had occurred across the road.
Since then 2 units had been built 15 doors further north on the same side of the street with no problems.

Our site had some peculiar problems.

The only similar problem I have come across was in an inner suburb (Brunswick) where solid ground was reached at 600mm in the front of the block, but they had to drill down over 5mt at the rear of teh site to hit solid ground. Not really sure why. The suggestion was it was near a park and may have been used as a tip over 100 years ago - but no records of this. We had to sink piles down over 5mts.

But in general soil conditions are not a big worry unless you intend to excavate.
 
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