Metropole properties

Michael
As an Engineer I cannot agree with your view that Soil Conditions are not an issue unless you intend to excavate?????? :eek:
Soil conditions are vital in understanding what is to be encountered. They minimise settlement problems and variations for unsuitable materials.

Part of the problem I see is that often a number of people do not understand what the soil tests are saying. It isnt easy to understand and sometimes insufficient testing has been undertaken.

Soil Conditions should not only be used for consideration of footing and slab designs but they also should be considered for utilities installations such as sewer, water, gass and stormwater. Most people overlook this item.

I would also like to commend you on your careful responses. I feel that both you and AL have been as fair and transparent as possible in a public forum.

ECO Girl
I recently purchased 3 blocks for some houses and part of my offer and due diligence had approval for me to undertake soil tests and site classification prior to purchase. The tricky bit is getting the right tests and advice. Some Soil Tests and Engineers have done limited investigation for small fees and ending up causing problems for the developer. I suggest you talk to some of the reputable builders for a reference.

Hope this helps

DP :)
 
DaveP said:
Michael
As an Engineer I cannot agree with your view that Soil Conditions are not an issue unless you intend to excavate?????? :eek:
Soil conditions are vital in understanding what is to be encountered. They minimise settlement problems and variations for unsuitable materials.
DP :)
Dave

I completely agree with you. Soil tests are critical. They are the first thing we organise before getting working drawings as they impact directly on the engineering for the property.

I may have been flippant, but my point was that a soil test that is S or M or P will only slightly impact on the costs but not terribly, and is unlikley to change a project's viability

The other issue with soil tests prior to purchasing a proeprty is often the old dwelling is right where you want to build the new dwelling and therefore conduct your test so you can only get an indication by doing a test in the area surrounding the house.
 
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Soil testing HOW. Class M. H. P. X Etc

Dave P

Interesting response. :)

How actually are soil tests taken CORRECTLY. :confused:

I have purchased land where geo tech reports list soil test pits that have been done on approximately every 4th block in a random pattern over the subdivision. Giving depth & soil conditions down to 2 metres at most. Usually backhoe at end of reach. (Or something like that)

Then I have also had site drill tests done on blocks at different locations around the block. Usually to much deeper depths.
Mainly to place the actual block in it's own catagory and sort out any unforseen problems under lovely green grass.

The reports are at times rather vague. Eg summaries. H class slab required . Builder should comply with Aus Standard XYZ 2009 + section c of item 7 in yr 2001 volume 4 of engineering certification process. :confused:

What really do we need to look for??

But as to faulty footings I have seen a few. Homes built on slabs that have sunk . Or only sunk in one corner. Causing slab to split. Frames to drop along with roof lines. Doors to not open. Widows to crack, eaves to fall out. sewer & water pipes to split, etc. A real worry. Something that is certainly not easily rectified :(
 
Hi All,
I have watched this post with much interest & i guess it has been thought provoking in parts. I don't think this post should end just yet & i still have some points i want to make. So at the risk of offending MY & AL here i go.

Firstly are the following statements correct?

(1) AL currently stands to make a loss if he were to sell the townhouses now?

(2) Builder made no profit on this job, just received a wage for the construction? Not sure why a builder would agree to such terms & i guess it's a testament to MY & Metropole & his pull he has with this particular builder.

(3) Has MY (& Metropole) made a profit? I can remember reading that you paid for some stuff to improve the development & maybe even discounted your fee, but did MY make a profit? If so you are the only person to make one.

I understand & appreciate that the responsibility for the success of this project lies solely with AL. However Metropole (& MY) did select the site, negotiated it with the vendor, arranged for the engineer's & builder's working drawings, organised the construction, i think that doesn't make make MY & Metropole blameless either. AL was paying for MY/Metropole's vast experience & was relying on your good judgement. As AL is based O/S, he was probably relying on you, possibly more so than one of your local customers.


I don't blame MY for the downturn in the property market & that's always the risk any developer must face, but obviously the problem experienced on this site haven eaten into the profits regardless of the property market. Even in a rising market, the problem is still the same.

Once a soil test was carried out, why wasn't the property onsold to a third party? Did MY/Metropole suggest this to AL? If not why wasn't it suggested & if so why didn't AL heed MY's advice?

I think all of MY's previous customers have done well out of using MY's services, so wouldn't it be a good idea to further help AL? It may even further enhance your reputation as a good guy who stands behinds his promises of getting his customers property at wholesale prices (btw, not implying that you don't already do this now).

Thanks for allowing me to ramble on & once again i bear no malice to MY or AL & wish them both good fortune.

Regards Tony
 
Tony said:
Hi All,
I have watched this post with much interest & i guess it has been thought provoking in parts. I don't think this post should end just yet & i still have some points i want to make. So at the risk of offending MY & AL here i go.
.......

Regards Tony

Tony
I am sure you want to understand what went on as a learning experince. That is one of the great things about this forum, we can all learn from each other. But I am not going to respond to your questions becuase they relate to a client's private business.

If I were to answer your questions, I am certain would find there would be appropriate answers to each of your questions.
 
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Hi Everyone,

There is one thing that I would like to add to this discussion. In the property market, as with any area of business, good advice and service rarely comes cheaply. If you are considering a service from a company such as Metropole, you should take more notice of the value of their service and less on the simple cost. Are they creating value for you?

If you have the time and expertise to handle the project management yourself, then you don't need such assistance, but if you don't, don't expect to pay a pitance for quality assistance.

Regards
Alistair Perry
www.town-planning.com.au
 
APerry said:
Hi Everyone,

There is one thing that I would like to add to this discussion. In the property market, as with any area of business, good advice and service rarely comes cheaply. If you are considering a service from a company such as Metropole, you should take more notice of the value of their service and less on the simple cost. Are they creating value for you?

If you have the time and expertise to handle the project management yourself, then you don't need such assistance, but if you don't, don't expect to pay a pitance for quality assistance.

Regards
Alistair Perry
www.town-planning.com.au

Hi Alistair,

What're you trying to say with this?. What does it have to do with AL's property development outcome?

Regards,

James.
 
Hi James,

There was some discussion earlier in the thread regarding the value of a project manager. I was just trying to explain that it is not the cost they should look at but the value that the consultant can add.

The discussion started regarding the value of using a consultant (Metropole) did it not?

Regards
Alistair Perry
www.town-planning.com.au
 
APerry said:
Hi James,

There was some discussion earlier in the thread regarding the value of a project manager. I was just trying to explain that it is not the cost they should look at but the value that the consultant can add.

The discussion started regarding the value of using a consultant (Metropole) did it not?

Regards
Alistair Perry
www.town-planning.com.au

Got your point.
Thanks,
James.
 
I would be happy to use Metropole's services.

Anything like a development carries an element of risk- a developer cannot be aware of what the market will be like when the development is finished two years down the track.

If I did do a project, I understand now, much better than before, the possible downside.

I'm still prepared to take that risk, as the rewards are also good, should the project be successful.
 
I know of a couple of members of this forum who are using Metropole project management services, unlike mine I certainly hope that their outcome is favourable. I certainly hope these members have a profitable outcome, not just a expensive "learning experience". The project is in it's final winding up stages now I will post the final outcome soon.
 
I've been reading this thread with interest and interested in the final outcome of this as it is unfortunately very interesting and insightful.

I was thinking about the viability of developments and the "fair profit" statement and just how viable these projects are these days.

I was thinking about the "less than the usual 5%" , the builder "doing it for wages only, saving $40,000 at least" and the tiling being done at Michaels expense to improve the look.

It seems that if the full 5% metropole fee, the tilling, the builders $40,000 profit and a 3% cost overrun allowance had been factored in up front, then the feasibility would not have shown a fair profit anymore and the development possibly should not have started?

I was also wondering that if the plan was to buy-build-sell; that when the soil test came back adding $30,000 and 3-4 months; whether the RE agents where re-appraised to see if there had been any change in the market?

Also, were any pre-sales considered? They would have reduced the risk of the market value dropping and possibly would have locked in the lost $150,000 profit.

Noddy.
 
always_learning said:
The project is in it's final winding up stages now I will post the final outcome soon.

Hi Always,

Just wondering if the outcome had happened already???

Thanks for your comments,

James.
 
After a several month long legal nightmare with the title split (another l.o.n.g. story, and not directly related to Metropole) settlement for one unit should take place this week (I hope). My friend (development partner) has sold his unit which will settle soon. The one unit remaining sat vacant for too long, was tenanted out at a cheap rent.

I certainly lost more money in the act of selling (agents, legals, GST differential between input and sale price) that the on-paper loss as an outcome of the development. I would be happy to post some hard facts/figures but I am unclear as to the legal implications with Metropole.
 
Hi AL,
Guess if you present the truth with regards to fact & figures, Metropole can't argue that, even if you were taken to court. Besides i'm sure that MY agrees that it would be beneficial for everyone in our community to know the truth in the spirit of learning.

Regards Tony
 
Hi Tony

The difficulty is that there are court cases everyday to decide who's version of the truth is the most accurate.
Truth alone, as you know it, does not allow you to say anything you like.

GarryK
 
Garry K said:
Hi Tony

The difficulty is that there are court cases everyday to decide who's version of the truth is the most accurate.
Truth alone, as you know it, does not allow you to say anything you like.

GarryK

GK is spot on. Absolutes only exist in science not the law. :D
 
Calm down, I havent been "warned off" or otherwise threatened. However I just feel it is reasonable to seek Metropole's approval before posting details.
 
AL is right, there has been no communication between us personally about this post or any warnings or suggestions of any kind.

I believe this forum is an educational forum and I would like to see this post proceed in that vein.

To me it makes sense that it would benefit the community for AL to advise the forum the lessons he has learned from the experience, perhaps without detailed figures or laying blame.

In return I would be happy to explain what Ihave learned from the project.
After all these years I am still learing.

There is no way this has been a successful project and it is disapointing. I have been a member of this forum since its inception and I think most members understand my work ethic and pride in helping clients create wealth.
 
Hi AL

Myself, along with most other forum members, would be very interested in seeing the facts and figures.

Reading through the whole post you have already outlined most of the unfortunate problems but itwould be very interesting to see exactly where all the money goes in this sort of project.

I was recently involved in a similar project in Roselle, Sydney where we exited the project at the DA stage. We were lucky we did as we made $250k(gross) the ultimate builder/developer made about $30k (we are informed). So from this it seems the money is really in the rezoning in this case DA and splitting block, or as Peter S puts it higher use, than the actual building process which seems to have a fixed margin associated with it.

So please do post some more facts and figures so everybody can analyse similar situations in the future.

Cheers
 
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