Money and your oedipal complex

G'day.

Been reflecting on how we develop our view of money lately.

Quite often books and seminars promote the idea of examining one's views about money and particularly one's family-of-origin view of money (since it is cited as the major influence for our view).

So.....

What do people see as their view of money and in particular what psychological barriers do you see for yourself in becoming wealthy?

I started this thread because I've realised lately that I have been an underacheiver in financial terms where I'm probably and overacheiver elsewheres.

I know money won't buy happiness and that is not really what I'm asking here. I'm interested in people's view of money, where that has come from, what things keep you from having more money and what are you gunna do about it?

Over to you and Dr Freud.

bagg

PS sorry if this topic has been done - I did do a search!
 
Howdo Bagg

Your reference to Oedipus is interesting, but what relevance to an investors development? First on four legs, then on two, and lastly on three. I’ll think further on that.

When I had the shop (sold around 600 books per month) the books on money languished on the shelves, in an area where people would lay by purchases over $5.

Yet the feng shui books and charms, particularly the ones for money and success, sold like hot cakes.

OK. Here are my observations after hundreds of conversations about this and other deep and meaningful subjects:

Most people do not seek success because they are afraid of the responsibility of the success, and that the failure after success is the more spectacular.

Most people do not want to accumulate the money (there were recent posts about the ‘greedy bastard’ syndrome) but can contemplate ‘winning’ it with a clear conscience. Knowing the likelihood of winning is remote, it is a harmless fantasy which doesn’t require any preparation or responsibility.

Most people secretly feel that they don’t ‘deserve’ success and money, and that it would be presumptive to want it.

Most people are brought up with the concept of ‘sharing’, so if you have money you should share it with your little brother / sister / long lost third cousin / etc

In other words, money will set us apart from other people, and actually make us an easy target for the ‘spongers’

Personally, one of the strongest influences on me for success has been a lesson from Sunday School, and various versions of this story of the Three Servants are told in Parables and also in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew.

It is the story of the Vineyard owner who, prior to leaving on a trip, calls his three most trusted servants. To one, he gives one talent (coin), to the second, five talents, and to the third, ten talents. When the owner returns, the third servant has increased the ten talents by another ten talents, the second has increased by five, but the first servant, so afraid of losing the one talent buried it, and thus incurred the wrath of the owner, and was banished. The other two got the fatted calf, feasting, and promotions, and in one version of the story, the most productive servant was then given ten cities to look after, thus compounding his wealth and station in life even more.

Now, Bagg, I don’t know whether it was the threat of banishment, the promise of the fatted calf, or the enticement of the ten cities which influenced me, but certainly I have always felt that we have the inherent responsibility to do the best we can (really, the best!! we can) and to go forth and multiply. Not, to use an old fashioned term, in vain glory or seeking wealth and power over others, but simply to use the talents we were born with in the best possible way.

However, the other conditioned restrictions of always eating the burnt chop and turning the other cheek have certainly played a significant part in undermining the impetus of the primary motivation. As a result the coffers are perhaps not as full as they could have been. But as life is a journey I am starting to disassociate from the concept of ‘deserving’ success, and can feel the gears slowly starting to shift into a more definite forward motion.

At the end of the day, I would hope that I have financial independence in my old age, am able to leave enough money to pay for my funeral, that there is a ‘little something’ left over for my children, and that during my lifetime I develop the capacity to make an active difference to my community, without feeling that I have taken from my family to do so.

My view of money is that it is elastic and does somewhat resemble plasticine. Like the Irish Shilling, there’s always enough, even when it appears that there isn’t. But money in and of itself is sterile and useless. In working on Myrtle Cottage, it has given me great pleasure to provide work for other people, and to recycle the money through the local economy. But like the Gambler’s Song, (you) never count your money while you’re sitting at the table, there’ll be time enough for counting when the dealings’ done.

So, (and I could have said this 1,000 words ago) my motivation is the action, and the money will always come.

By the way, perhaps the question should have been where is the wound for Chiron to heal? Oedipus, after all, did not have a problem with money.

Oh and Bagg, don't forget to 'share' your own experience with this one - where is your limitation?

Cheers

Kristine
 
Kristine, youre so full of it.:D

Im not too big on Freud, so id like to ask what the connection is between money and desiring sex with ones mother?

ps: James Freud and the Models werent too bad tho.
 
Originally posted by brains
Im not too big on Freud, so id like to ask what the connection is between money and desiring sex with ones mother?
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing, and mean your mother.
 
A good post with good questions. I enjoy thinking about questions like these and writing the answers down. It helps me find identify my strengths & weakness's.

I believe the questions are ...

Q1: how we develop our view of money

Q2: What do people see as their view of money

Q3: What psychological barriers do you see for yourself in becoming wealthy?

Q4: people's view of money
- where that has come from
- what things keep you from having more money
- what are you gunna do about it?

------------------------------------------------------
A1: How we develop views on money ...

Reading books
Talking to like minded people
Keeping an open mind
Trying new things
Travelling to different countries always gets me thinking about business opportunities for import/export and IP deals.

------------------------------------------------------
A2: View of money

Not sure how to answer ..

------------------------------------------------------
A3: Psychological barriers in becoming wealthy ?

* Clearly defined achievable goals.
The basic poor mans goal to becoming wealthy is to save a bit of money, pay off the PPOR within his lifetime & retire on superanuation. What is the next achievable goal after paying off the PPOR ?
If there isn't a 'clear' roadmap, excess money get funneled into new cars & other 'wealth killing' liabilities

* Lack of understanding of different investment terms, vehicles and associated risks.
A lot of my colleagues are told by their accountants that they should invest because they pay too much tax. They ask me some basic questions about IP's that they could probably work out themselves. One look at a simple spreadsheet showing how much an IP will cost per week can turn a person around. I can hear the cogs turning !. After a couple of weeks they return to their old habits.

* False sence of security.
A lot of my friends are at a stage in life (in their thirties) where they have enough money to buy exotic cars, go on holidays whenever they want and save a bit of money. They feel comfortable and secure. This leads them to believe that they don't have to invest

* Paying proessionals for advice.
A fear of using professionals like financial advisors & good accountants where they can't see anything tangible as an outcome

* The belief that doing nothing is better than risking some of what they have worked hard for (their PPOR).
For example - A colleague/boss in his 50's is afraid to use some equity in his PPOR (built with his own hands over 10 years) to finance an IP. He is willing to use all of his spare cash speculating on shares though !

------------------------------------------------------
A4: people's view of money
- where that has come from
- what things keep you from having more money
- what are you gunna do about it ?

where has that come from ?
- fiends & family
what keeps me from having more ?
- psycological barriers, failure to recognise good deals
what are you gunna do about it ?
- Continue learning, asking questions, analysing deals & look at as many different forms of investment vehicles as possible
 
I've been fortunate to have well-paid work the last 17 years or so (ie. since I left school) and haven't achieved anywhere near as much as what I would have liked to, financially speaking.

But I've also never felt that I should stop living to save "yet another dollar" and that I must have a balanced view towards saving/investing for my "future" when that future might never arrive (ie. getting hit by a bus).

My family's attitude to money did pigeon-hole me to some degree into their way of thinking, for a while. I was certainly more intelligent about money than my parents, but did not take it far enough.

Financially speaking we're not the best off family in the world, neither are we the worst off. But, having been blessed with a baby daughter nearly two years ago, that has changed my outlook also somewhat.

I have absorbed information on investing like a sponge. Knowing it and doing it are still two different things.

Whilst most investment strategies rely on using the equity in one's home, I am finding it somewhat difficult to overcome that "fear". It's not a debilitating fear but it probably means I am taking things more slowly than I could, learning more, perhaps even procrastinating about "jumping in".

I have found environmental factors have played a part in some of our financial decisions. I cannot overstate the power of having job security when it comes time to making major financial decisions like buying a house or an investment property. "Market sentiment" is alive and real I believe, even if the rational part of me knows that that emotion is often irrational. Even though most people buy investment properties to escape the rat race, often that becomes the very thing that ties them even more to their job.

Having large "debt" is still somewhat of a psychological barrier for me, but especially for my wife. It takes a while to embrace concepts that are totally contrary to most things your parents taught you, and concepts that are sometimes contrary to "common sense" (which often isn't).

I also think comfort factors or the so-called "sleep at night factor" affect what and how we have achieved things. It becomes a case of what you are prepared to lose. I owned land in late 80's when interest rates hit 18% or whatever. It didn't bother me because what I had purchased was only $400 or $500 a month or so from my pay. I didn't have to worry about a tenant in the equation because there wasn't gonna be one. Buying an investment property is not just about working on the "good" numbers (ie. with tenant, no repairs), it's also about working on the "bad" numbers (ie. no tenant, repairs, damage etc) and how that impacts your cashflow. With land there is essentially only one set of numbers (I bought the land to build my first home on, not as an investment, by the way). No one will suggest it's particularly easy to fund a $300K property in the "worst case" scenario, even allowing for the tax deductions. The key for me is convincing myself of the likelihood and potential duration of such a risk.

I have no great desire to be "filthy rich", though I wouldn't knock it back. I would like to have the option to *not work* if I so choose to - my desire is having the option as opposed to necessarily doing it. It becomes a safety net I don't presently have. If I get pissed with my job I can chuck it in, find another one at my leisure, etc. Perhaps that comes from being in IT (depressed job market).

Kristine mentions the "greedy bastard" syndrome and "sharing". My wife and I look at investing as "trying to get ahead". Not ahead of everyone else, but ahead to where we'd prefer to be. I suspect certain members of my extended family would be delighted to offer us an "I told you so" if we failed on an investment. But I don't think that bothers me too much since we've always pleased ourselves. I believe in supporting your family financially if it becomes imperative, but as for "sharing" as we commonly understand it, I would only do so if we ourselves had surplus funds available to us after doing what we wanted to do.

I think sometimes that "sharing" is used as an excuse for someone (brother, sister, etc) to try cash in on your good fortune without them entertaining any of the risks. If I put $10K into shares and make $20K, should I give X% away because of my "good fortune". What about the next share trade I try that loses me $10K - can I get that back from my brother/sister etc? Sharing's really a two-way street but when it comes to sharing money I often find there's a "One Way" sign somewhere.

I once had an offer from someone who had found a "good" property and suggested I purchase it, and we split the equity growth 50:50. His 50% of equity growth was his reward for finding the property. Where is their risk that entitles them to 50% of the equity growth? They don't have money in the deal, so they can't lose money, right?

We no longer talk money with certain family members because their and our opinions are poles apart. We like to spend money, too, but we have at least put some basic financial foundations in place - like buying our own home. A roof over our heads that we owned seemed a fairly basic tenet of creating security for oneself. It didn't require any investing rocket science to get that right (although had we picked a different area our property may have increased in value more than it has - oh well). They think we're "well off" because we have a home - and a mortgage. We think we've got a mortgage to pay that's bigger than their rent. But we know our struggle to pay the mortgage at least rewards us with equity, whereas they earn nothing.

I once asked them what kind of financial education they were going to give to their 10-yo son - I asked this with a genuine concern as to the importance of children receiving financial education (which they also concur is something several missing in schools). But I think they may have taken my comment as an affront to their own spending habits, so it didn't go down too well!

Hope that's kind of what you were looking for.
 
Thanks for all the considered replys so far.

I find this a fascinating topic.

The reason I put old oedipus in the post was so as to get sex in the title so as people would read it :) I was feeling a bit despondant after no-one replied to my last threadstarter :(

Kristine, I really liked your post. I can see you have worked through a lot of issues. You give a great summary of many of the "money hangups" out there - even if you are full of it!

Guilt is another one - and my particular favourite. Having, when other (deserving) folk do not, I find very hard. Despite your parable Krisitne my major hangup is a throw back to christianity. In my upbringing, poverty was linked with goodness. I give a lot of $'s away and many think me altruistic. Really though, I'm just stuck not being able to deal with my own wealth. Bummer!

I particularly liked your point about people being prepared to win lotto but not build a fortune because they can't cope with the responsibility.

Brains - James Freud and the Models were bloody awful : )

Kev - Keep reflecting on that "fear" that stops you investing atm. Once that is conquered you will do well but until then, I think you will remain "paralysed".

Will - I liked your point that education won't change a thing for most. That really is my point. Our core beliefs (including money) are much deeper than that and not someting that facts or education can really challenge.

Anyway, must ring up Mum - if only oedipus would get off the line ;)

keep 'em coming

bagg
 
Originally posted by bagg
Guilt is another one - and my particular favourite. Having, when other (deserving) folk do not, I find very hard. Despite your parable Krisitne my major hangup is a throw back to christianity. In my upbringing, poverty was linked with goodness. I give a lot of $'s away and many think me altruistic. Really though, I'm just stuck not being able to deal with my own wealth. Bummer!
Bagg,

In that situation, Kristine's parable is especially appropriate. It was the servant with the ten talents who earnt ten more who was rewarded- not the one who was given one, who hoarded it.

I've heard it said that the word "talent" in English actually comes from this parable- which makes it mean a lot more than just money. But the meaning is still there- very strongly.

When I first went to my "wake up" seminars with Peter Spann, he recommended that charity be given to those who already proved a fiscal responsibility through investing funds wisely. He did mention that the Salvos did have a very good (fiscally sound) investment plan- but that contributions to their relief projects were directed entirely to those projects- the investments provided the income for the infrastructure necesary.

He also mentioned that the salvos were the only ones there for him when everything else had failed- before he got back on his feet again.
 
G'day Bagg,

Get yourself a copy of Jan's "Story by Story" and read story 82. That should give you a feast of food for thought regarding "guilt" and "having while others don't have".

I personally love this book as it gives 100 different stories about IP's and investing.

Regards,
 
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