Motivated Money by Peter Thornhill... Shares for Property Investors!

Hi JIT,

congrats on at least having thought thru a strategy that may apply to you. You are already light years ahead of those that don't think at all and pray and hope that the insto's managing their industry fund will perform.

Here's an exceprt from a piece that came to me today:

Why ‘buy and trade’ beats ‘buy and hold’

While last year’s more bullish market was all about buy-and-hold, Schellbach says 2010 and 2011 is a time for nimble investors to capitalise on corrections.

To Schellbach that means buying on the dips and locking in gains on the rallies. If, as he suspects, trading ranges are as wide as 15 percent intra-month or 3 per cent intra-day, he argues that there will be no shortage of buy-and-trade opportunities.

Assuming there’s a lot more volatility in store, Oliver says default strategies deployed by investors during the market’s 17-year bull-run – when it was safe to buy-and-hold virtually anything – will be less profitable. Oliver says investors might consider capitalising on opportunities provided by extreme swings in sharemarkets - such as those experienced late in 2008 and early 2009 - over a one-to three-year horizon.

According to Tim Schroeders, fund manager with Pengana Capital, investors who don’t regularly rebalance their investment portfolios within such a volatile market risk missing out on buying opportunities. But investors must find a happy medium between over trading their portfolio and sitting on their hands. “They need to ponder how much of their portfolio should be given over to exploiting market opportunities through a disciplined framework that can consistently maximise returns,” says Schroeders. “That means thinking beyond the mindset that they’ve got just one primary investment pool.”

Over a longer investment horizon, Leaning says a buy-and-hold strategy still adds value. But like Schroeders, he also urges investors to allocate part of their non-core holdings to playing shorter and more volatile swings.

“When the market was at 3,300 points - which put forward PE multiples on Australian equities at around 9 times - a buy-and-hold strategy clearly made more sense than today,” he says.

Nevertheless, he says one way play the current cycle is to sell down or reduce exposure to certain income-bearing stocks that may have lost value over recent months in favour of those offerings greater growth upside. “We advocate investors overlay the technicals over fundamentals, and another strategy is to hedge their portfolio with options,” he says.


Perhaps use the term trade loosely and employ a term that Alan Hull uses that I also like.....Active Investing.

Here's the link to the whole article:


http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/...r-a-rally,-or-is-the-bear-market-upon-us.html


Nothing wrong with buy and hold however with just a little extra work and prudence, you may avoid the opportunity loss/cost of having to ride the large dips and sideways recoveries when you could have locked in profits to a degree (and paid tax) and remained in a safer class such as cash awaiting more opportunities. This period sometimes lasts years.

I'm not gonna go into an full blown treatise about dollar cost averaging up or down, just merely presenting my view also.

FWIW my SMSF aside from significant property holdings, has some cash. I have not re-entered the stock market as yet. I do not trade, however did take all money out of the market in June 2008. Perhaps foolishly I did not re-enter last year around July would have certainly seen a ride of the uptrend, however would have required exiting before the new year to avoid the volatility that 2010 has brought and the largely sideways tendancy we are seeing in an overall sense.

Others do well riding the ups and downs, by channel trend surfing. Horses for courses. Consider all opinions and views and do what suits your temperament and style.

BTW, are you sure you (at your young age) will be able access(even some) super at 55?
 
JIT - No critisms really, all sounds very sensible.

My only beef being that it's not accessible until 55. You're 30 now and won't be able to access it for a long time. If it was outside of SMSF, you'd be able to grow it faster (leverage) and be able to access it sooner (since not bound to Super rules). Is this a concern?
 
Sounds like a great strategy JIT. The only part I would disagree with is using the SMSF structure to buy the managed funds. I'm not interested in using a vehicle in which the govt. can change the rules of access anytime they feel like. 30yrs is a long time as it stands now, you don't think they'll tinker with the rules before then and increase the access age to say 60 when in 20yrs time our average life expectancy has increased another few years with advances in health and medicine? Perhaps not, but it's not a chance I'm taking.

As you said, there are other structure to buy in like a DT etc. Even if I do end up paying a bit of extra tax outside a SMSF as opposed to inside it, that's a price I'm more than happy to pay for the extra control and access. What if your strategy involving CF+ MF's and property is very successful and you're ready to retire by 50 but aren't able to access the dividend income until 55?
 
Sounds like a great strategy JIT. The only part I would disagree with is using the SMSF structure to buy the managed funds. I'm not interested in using a vehicle in which the govt. can change the rules of access anytime they feel like. 30yrs is a long time as it stands now, you don't think they'll tinker with the rules before then and increase the access age to say 60 when in 20yrs time our average life expectancy has increased another few years with advances in health and medicine? Perhaps not, but it's not a chance I'm taking.

As you said, there are other structure to buy in like a DT etc. Even if I do end up paying a bit of extra tax outside a SMSF as opposed to inside it, that's a price I'm more than happy to pay for the extra control and access. What if your strategy involving CF+ MF's and property is very successful and you're ready to retire by 50 but aren't able to access the dividend income until 55?

Steve, with all due respect, it is not just "a bit of tax". We are talking massive tax concessions for wealth held in super.

Once the fund commences pension phase, the earnings in the fund are tax-free. Once you turn 60, your pension is also tax-free.

The governments may change the rules - this is a risk. But consider this - politicians have super too, they are affected by any change in the rules as much as we are.

While I agree that for those of us in our 20's or 30's, super lacks liquidity, there should ultimately be a plan to transfer our asset holdings into super by pension age. The tax consequences of not considering this are far too great.
 
My only beef being that it's not accessible until 55. You're 30 now and won't be able to access it for a long time. If it was outside of SMSF, you'd be able to grow it faster (leverage) and be able to access it sooner (since not bound to Super rules). Is this a concern?

steveadl said:
As you said, there are other structure to buy in like a DT etc. Even if I do end up paying a bit of extra tax outside a SMSF as opposed to inside it, that's a price I'm more than happy to pay for the extra control and access. What if your strategy involving CF+ MF's and property is very successful and you're ready to retire by 50 but aren't able to access the dividend income until 55?

dtraeger2k and Steve,

I appreciate your points re. access to super, but this is ultimately a personal decision and depends on a number of variables particular to the individual. I believe the strategy is equally appropriate though using a DT outside super.

I’m not inclined to use additional leverage for shares outside super anyway. I would do most of my leveraging and growing of my gross asset base through property due to the much higher gearing levels available here, and this would be my core focus outside super.

And, I would only contribute the maximum tax-deductible contribution into a SMSF, at present 25k pa at my age, and no more.

Any other spare equity or cash would be used mainly to leverage further into residential property, but also for business/CIPs, OR even… index funds via a DT if I didn’t have other uses for my funds outside super. So, you could if you want still make the tax-deductible contributions into super (and get the advantages of this), and use any excess cash/equity beyond this to invest via a DT outside super.

My personal investment focus is no longer on early retirement, as I am pretty happy with my vocation, income prospects, and the flexibility available to me in this regard eg. part-time work. I could potentially do partial LOE also to complement part-time work if I wanted to semi-retire early. Retiring early is never going to be particularly tax-effective, and that's the reality of it.

Further to all of this, for this strategy to really work, you need to set and forget and not touch it for 25+ years, and putting the money into super is a way of enforcing this outcome! (Hence, you could argue that the younger you are when you start the better.)

And fundamentally the bulk of my wealth will still be outside super, until I hit 40-45 at least, when I would gradually start transferring more of it into super.

(Player, let me digest your post before commenting!)
 
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We are talking massive tax concessions for wealth held in super.

Once the fund commences pension phase, the earnings in the fund are tax-free. Once you turn 60, your pension is also tax-free.

The governments may change the rules - this is a risk. But consider this - politicians have super too, they are affected by any change in the rules as much as we are.

While I agree that for those of us in our 20's or 30's, super lacks liquidity, there should ultimately be a plan to transfer our asset holdings into super by pension age. The tax consequences of not considering this are far too great.

I have to agree with this, well said.
 
Steve, with all due respect, it is not just "a bit of tax". We are talking massive tax concessions for wealth held in super.

Point taken, I'm not up with the all the tax effects with super since I'm not interested in it, so I'll leave it at that. :)
 
''Over a longer investment horizon, Leaning says a buy-and-hold strategy still adds value. But like Schroeders, he also urges investors to allocate part of their non-core holdings to playing shorter and more volatile swings.''

...

Perhaps use the term trade loosely and employ a term that Alan Hull uses that I also like.....Active Investing.

Thanks for the article Player.

Whilst I can see some merit perhaps in allocating a non-core part of your portfolio to an active strategy, it's not something that resonates with me in general and doesn't fit within my defined objectives I outlined earlier.

I also feel that the timing issues here are fraught with danger.
 
No worries; as I said horses for courses.

IMHO whilst timing issues may be fraught with danger, a disregard may also see the falling knives laying on the floor (with markets going largely sideways after they have retreated) and opportunity loss playing a role.......merely my 0.02.

No matter.............. It's good to be aware of other views, as this book has also enabled you to further focus on what you already may have been entertaining (albeit at a lesser degree perhaps than prior to reading the book).

Thanks for sharing it; it's not one I've come across.

Also, have a look here:


http://ato.gov.au/super/content.asp?doc=/content/48211.htm

How exactly will you be able to access your super at 55? It looks like it shall be 60 for your era and that ignores the rule changes up until that time.

I'm 17 years older than you and I am able to start sucking out income at 58, a little over 10 years from now.
 
Player said:
I'm 17 years older than you and I am able to start sucking out income at 58, a little over 10 years from now.

Thanks for the link, some of the resources that I have read in the past were targeted to the older group, so I think that's why I was using the 55 age, but I am duly corrected, it appears that I should act my age!

This is referring to transition to retirement of course:

http://www.ato.gov.au/super/content.asp?doc=/content/74219.htm

"Pension age'' being when you can access centrelink benefits.

The planned strategy won't change nonetheless.
 
Hi JIT,

Why ‘buy and trade’ beats ‘buy and hold’

While last year’s more bullish market was all about buy-and-hold, Schellbach says 2010 and 2011 is a time for nimble investors to capitalise on corrections.



Interesting post Player,
lots of issues to reflect on.

My take,
the market is in a massive tug of war, old themes getting tested with new, a low interest environment is conductive of greed, but its tempered by fragile markets whereby investors (generic term, not my term) shoot first ask questions later, the traditional 'buy and hold' investor has been severely burnt and is questioning everything that has been fed to him.

Have we been in similar situations before?
yes i would look to the 1970's, its same same but different,
why same?
because peoples philosophies are being tested again, the markets are not clear, what was fed to us doesnt seem to be working.

why different?
very different macro environment.

Winston Wolf came up with some interesting ideas here:
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showpost.php?p=685484&postcount=11

and it actually fits into the themes that i talked about in my strategic investments 2008 and strategic investments 2010.

But thats also the thing, i am becoming more comfortable with Winstons settings, why?
because the market is starting to price those themes as well.

this is good, because where the market starts to price risk, compensation for holding those risks rise proportionately.

I dont mind taking on risk, but what i do mind is when i am not compensated adequately for holding those risks.

In the current environment i am being COMPENSATED VERY WELL.
In the short term that compensation might not equal MR MARKETS mood swings,
but give me several years and that compensation will more than compensate.
 
Always interested in your perspective, IV. Thanks for that.

Do you apply your rationale to your super fund or is this your normal (outside of super) investing vehicle be it personal or entity (trust or other)?

Also I note that you do take profits (or remove capital to contain risk) as mentioned on the thread that your pre-reincarnated self had started on CC's.

The frequency or extent of portfolio holdings of doing such may not put you in the traders camp, however even prudent investors take money off the table at times particularly as one or two specific sectors have had a stellar run and become expensive (by valuation) and then you buy back in when you're happy with price and under your terms as you put it.

Is that a correct understanding, not just for CC's or options but for your long positions?
 
Player;686249]Always interested in your perspective, IV. Thanks for that.

Do you apply your rationale to your super fund or is this your normal (outside of super) investing vehicle be it personal or entity (trust or other)?

No my super is just left in industry based superannuation on a 'balanced' setting. Its my last line of defence, hopefully i will never actually need it. I rarely look at it (like maybe every few years:eek:).

Also I note that you do take profits (or remove capital to contain risk) as mentioned on the thread that your pre-reincarnated self had started on CC's.

The frequency or extent of portfolio holdings of doing such may not put you in the traders camp, however even prudent investors take money off the table at times particularly as one or two specific sectors have had a stellar run and become expensive (by valuation) and then you buy back in when you're happy with price and under your terms as you put it
.

Sometimes my actions may appear to be 'trading', but not according to my philosophy. I dont buy/sell based on trends, moving averages, the cycle of the moon etc etc. I buy/sell based on the markets pricing of the underlying businesses.

Its just a different mindset, there are just two overriding factors that effect my decision making:
(a) trying to get an intrinsic valuation range on a business;
(b) waiting for Mr Market to allow me to buy/sell when the share prices move below/above the intrinsic value range.

Now intrinsic values are not set in stone, they can also move. So periodically i can buy/sell a share with a constant market price where there has been a significant change in intrinsic value.

However also note that 'good' companies tend to have rising intrinsic values over time. This is what Warren Buffett refers to as 'time is the friend of the great company' or words to that effect. It also reveals why Warren is hesitent selling, because he believes that the intrinsic value will compound.

So part of the 'secret' is to try to buy good companies rather than average companies. This will result in less need to divest of the investment. However this is not always possible (it depends on Mr Market giving me a window of opportunity), so i will also buy average companies so long as their discount to intrinsic value is greater to compensate me. I will also start to offload these positions much faster as they approach intrinsic value.

This is why sometimes my answers can appear 'vague' to some people on this board. I cant give precise answers, there are so many variables such as
(a) discount to intrinsic value
(b) quality of the underlying company
(c) regulatory risk
(d) share price volatility (this shouldnt effect an investor, but it WILL effect an investor with a margin loan account)
(e) sustainable earnings growth rate of the company (this effects the future movement in intrinsic value)
(f) dividend pay out ratio (this effects the future movement in intrinsic value)
(g) return on equity, return on invested capital, gross margins/long term gross margins. (these all effect the future movement in intrinsic value)

etc etc.
The key to understanding what i write (you dont have to agree), is to understand that i am constantly spending my focus on the underlying companies, not the general market. And different companies will have different intrinsic values, different intrinsic value growth rates, and structurally changing intrinsic values (especially cyclical companies),
so there is no one fits all forumla or prescribed action.

Is that a correct understanding, not just for CC's or options but for your long positions?

Writing covered calls last year was an interesting excercise, and from my limited experience definately not as easy as it sounds.

I slowly adapting the basic call strategy to suit my own purpose, but whether it will add value, i dont know yet.
 
Appreciate your effort IV. Thanks for that lengthy reply.

Agree that no one has to agree with anyone else, indeed being courageous and doing one's own thing is like stretching out on a limb.........that's where all the fruit is. ;)

As you've mentioned..........And different companies will have different intrinsic values, different intrinsic value growth rates, and structurally changing intrinsic values (especially cyclical companies),
so there is no one fits all forumla or prescribed action.
.......I see this, as perhaps no different, to the markets within marktets characteristic we have with property.

Whilst a major metro market may ostensibly be in the doldrums there may still be people doing well by seeking under-valued dirt to subdivide, develop or have done such adequate research (like you do on companies) to recognise upside by way of new infrastructure or other amenity that will make those areas/suburbs more desirable........a bit like forecasting forward earning I imagine.

It's great that there are so many means and methods to achieving each different person's ends. :)
 
Thanks for the replies.

Just a note, the strategies/ideas in this book are nothing new of course, but what I liked about the book was just the way the information was presented as it helped me look at shares from a slightly different perspective, and better see its application to my own personal investment strategy.



IV,

I know exactly what you are saying!

The book didn't ''fundamentally change'' anything with me, it actually reminded me of why the index fund approach to share investing has so much merit (I already knew this, but sometimes you forget when you are so focussed on one area, ie. property) ... and as you have just pointed out!

And, the place this could still have in my overall investment strategy, despite my core focus being in property, which is my recognised strength.

Reading this book didn't give me any inclination to stock pick whatsoever, as this is beyond my skill set, and I understand and accept this. I have no intention at all of reading annual reports or analysing stock price trends!

But the book has reminded me of the logic of investing in shares for the long-term for growth, and more importantly, for a long-term dividend income stream, that rises at a greater rate than bank interest or rents.

Dollar cost-averaging into an index fund portfolio, which as you correctly point out, was my ''original thought''! - is exactly what this book has given me greater conviction to follow through with, that's all.

But, something that I will personally do via more tax-deductible contributions into a SMSF.

And most importantly something I will start to do earlier rather than later, as the aim would be to purchase the shares for income as early as possible and hold them for as long as possible, such that by the time I get to my chosen ''retirement age'' the dividend cheques will be quite healthy.

Yesterday I actually sent an e-mail to Peter Thornhill to see what his thoughts on the index fund approach were and whether his portfolio has actually outperformed it!

I might report back his response.




Thanks IV, I didn't see that, I will read it and post back tommorrow.

Did you ever get a response JIT?
 
Nope.

Since this thread I converted to an LIC-based share portfolio, but still think index funds/ETFs have their place.

Why LIC's and has the dividends made up for the loss in share price value?

Is there a rebalancing scheme within the LIC's utlizing counter cyclical investments, which would seem to be the merit of going to index funds, bonds etc?

Toying with many things at present so am honestly interested
 
Why LIC's and has the dividends made up for the loss in share price value?

Is there a rebalancing scheme within the LIC's utlizing counter cyclical investments, which would seem to be the merit of going to index funds, bonds etc?

Toying with many things at present so am honestly interested

Not watching the share price or paying much attention to the exact dividend amounts coming in redwing.

I'm 32 y/o now and these shares (along with large cap/well yielding shares) are part of a long-term portfolio and a core part of my SMSF strategy (so 30+ years away for me).

It's a passive strategy, which means I buy when I have spare cash to put into my DT or SMSF (via deductible contributions), and don't really look at it much after that.

It's just about accumulating a passive retirement income stream via shares paying dividends.

So it's not really about what or when I buy, but how much and how often.

If I had more spare time I might time things better and look at NTA discounts/premiums and watch overall market cycles and buy in dips/crashes.

Index funds, ETFs, hybrids, A-REITs, unlisted commercial property trusts, commercial property syndicates and bonds all also have their place in a diversified long-term portfolio with a diversified income stream.

However, given my age and the long time frames involved before I will need or can access these income streams, I am staying 100% in equities via LICs and other dividend paying large cap shares for now.

As my portfolio size gets bigger and/or as I get older, then diversification and counter-cyclical strategies will become more important.

I think at the heart of all this is the idea of investing passively versus actively.

As immersed as I am in investing, finances and business right now, there will come a point where I may not want anything to do with any of this, and at that time, having a largely passive income stream coming in will give me the freedom to put my investments on auto-pilot and sail off into the sunset!

Hope this helps.
 
I would imagine the advantage of going blue chip LICs over ETFs is the discounts to the NTA they currently trade, it wasnt that long ago when ARG and AFI used to trade at a premiums to their NTA. The portfollio's (not the share price) basically hug the index so you can in effect buy a buck worth of blue chips with an ETF like STW or you could spend your buck on a LIC like ARG and get a buck ten worth of shares. The MER on the large LICs a roughly the same as an ETF ie less than .20
The risk is they defy history and start to underperform the index, this would increase the discount they trade at. I never understood why people buy them when they are trading at a premium to their NTA though.
 
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