My landlord is rorting the system - how well are govt depts linked?

[kathryn d]

There's obviously a demand for their supply, so imho that's a beautiful thing. And I think most students who get into these places actually want to be there and would be really annoyed if the gummit authorities got them kicked out.

I agree. Our local college has exchange students, and we had 2 young Chinese students ask to rent our very small bachelor suite. It had a queensized bed and we weren't willing to put in 2 single beds.
One of the first questions they asked if there were other Chinese tenants in the building.

Lou didn't want the hassles of a landlord. When you rent from an owner, that is exactly what you are getting. Her name wasn't on a lease. It would never be her home. ( I assume Lou is female?) She is a paying guest, and can remain only at the whim and convenience of the owner. Tenancy Act doesn't apply to Lou.

 

[weg]

I've lived in a couple of share houses and this is what it's like a lot of the time.

In your case you happen to share with the owner who I gather you see as being more selfish because they should somehow know better and because they earn a good income and own the place.

Getting a good arrangement is often pot luck but the beauty of this living arrangement is you don't have a lease and are usually able to up and go with little notice and less than a ute full of posessions.

The only way you can guarantee you don't have these problems again is by leasing a one bedroom unit or granny flat.

 

[Lou]

I have made it quite clear to her that most Australian's would not put up with what i have had to so i think she is going to get in a chinese student in.

As i said previously i was very upfront and clear with what i wanted in a sharehouse to avoid problems and issues. i spent at least an hour and a half here talking, discussing, and making sure we got along which is what she wanted as well. she didn't just want a boarder who never spoke cos they just rent a room.

There is a big cultural difference between us, I am aware of that based on what she has told me about families in China. but she is not in china, she is in Australia and she is living with an australian so she can't just expect me to accept that she is bringing her culture here so just deal with it

I have a quite racist aunt and uncle who get angry so many chinese have been let into Australia and i have always been the first to defend the chinese, explaining that they have the right to a better life, a better government etc etc.
Culture or not, i can't believe the audacity of coming to another country for a better life and then ripping off the system so they can get ahead. They bring their money here and buy a house to rent out and make money off. Should they be commended for making the accommodation available even though some do cram 4-5 people in a two bedroom place so they can make as much as they can even though it is probably illegal due to health and safety reasons, fire hazards etc to have that many people in a place that small? should they be commended for making the accommodation available if they are making a huge profit out of it and pocketing all the profits to get ahead cos it's their culture even though most people are doing the right thing in oz and declaring rental income and paying taxes?

I think of the poor people who live in a lot worse conditions than the chinese who don't have money who just want to come here for the opportunity at a better life and to stay alive, who would hopefully respect our country enough to respect it, contribute to it and do the right thing by it.
i have paid my taxes and alot of them over the past 10 years and i don't like thinking of the migrants who come here and don't.
i don't like of migrants coming here bringing their culture when it insults ours in terms of what is acceptable and we have just have to be okay with it otherwise we are considered racist.

if i moved to another country i would accept there culture and wouldn't just do whatever i felt like. imagine me going to live in a strict muslim community in a muslim country where they fully cover head to toe and i just stroll down the street in my shorts and shirt cos hey that's my culture. or during prayer time i just say bugger it i'm going for a jog. do think they would be embracing my culture when it is an insult to theres? i think not.

anyway i have learnt my lesson. if in a share house, there will be a lease. there will be no more sharing with landlords even though i know a few people who have had great success with sharing with landlords cos you wouldnt even know they are the landlord which is how it should be (unless it is specificially a boarding type arrangement).

i am out of here thursday week and counting down the days.
no more asian landlords or flatmates for me.
hopefully i will win lotto and i can just my own place - ah bliss

 

[gg1965]

Not wanting to sound disrespectful - but i think you should chill out a bit. Take some time off, go overseas youself for an extended period yourself and see how hard it is to start a new life in a new country with a totally different culture and different social mood.

I can tell you now, it is impossible to automatically forget your culture, and to change your lifestyle to suit another social climate. Most people do understand that.

It isn't just about prayers and clothing, it is about the way of life. Surviving, making money and putting food on the table and money in the bank. You do what you know.

I've lived in 3 different countries in Asia and have travelled to over a dozen in the same region. Plus i have studied Asian Studies at uni and i still don't think i know it all. Society and culture are very confusing as there are no hard and fast rules. It isn't black and white. But people do what they do, and they use their instincts and their gut feelings to get ahead. They do what they know and what is their norm.

In my travels i have also learnt a lot about Australia and our society. I guess you can say looking from the outside in. It was an eye opening experience seeing my own culture from the outside and i tell you what, some aspects of Asutralian society isn't very apepaling at all when loking from the outside.

I can go on for hours about this topic. It is close to my heart for many reasons. But do yourself a favour, don't expect everyone to behave with the same cultural rules and norms as you - regardless of where they are. It is a wide world out there with many different types of people - learn from them and don't travel through life with blinkers on.


g

 

[wylie]

Culture or not, i can't believe the audacity of coming to another country for a better life and then ripping off the system so they can get ahead.

It appears to me to be a grey area, and I am not sure what this one person is doing is "illegal". It just depends (perhaps) on how she treats your payment and how it is documented and what it is called, "rent" or "contributing to the running costs".

They bring their money here and buy a house to rent out and make money off. Should they be commended for making the accommodation available even though some do cram 4-5 people in a two bedroom place so they can make as much as they can even though it is probably illegal due to health and safety reasons, fire hazards etc to have that many people in a place that small? should they be commended for making the accommodation available if they are making a huge profit out of it and pocketing all the profits to get ahead cos it's their culture even though most people are doing the right thing in oz and declaring rental income and paying taxes?

Your "landlord" is not doing any of the above. You are one person and are contributing to the household expenses. My understanding is that this is legal, depending on how it is set up. It is something I have never really understood, and never worried about as it does not affect me at all.

I think it is wrong that she gave keys to her relatives, but maybe you could have had freedom to bring in your relatives if they were in town. Perhaps a good airing of your grievances with her would have ironed out these problems.

I also don't agree with cramming people into places not suitable, but this is not what has happened to you.

 

[skater]

There is a big cultural difference between us, I am aware of that based on what she has told me about families in China. but she is not in china, she is in Australia and she is living with an australian so she can't just expect me to accept that she is bringing her culture here so just deal with it
She is living in her own unit. You chose to share with her, so yes, you do have to deal with it.


Culture or not, i can't believe the audacity of coming to another country for a better life and then ripping off the system so they can get ahead.

She is NOT ripping the system off. You are living in a sharehouse arrangement. Get used to it or rent your own place.

They bring their money here and buy a house to rent out and make money off.
Nothing wrong with renting out rooms in your own place. I would suggest that my own kids do the same to help with expenses.
Should they be commended for making the accommodation available even though some do cram 4-5 people in a two bedroom place so they can make as much as they can even though it is probably illegal due to health and safety reasons, fire hazards etc to have that many people in a place that small? should they be commended for making the accommodation available if they are making a huge profit out of it and pocketing all the profits to get ahead cos it's their culture even though most people are doing the right thing in oz and declaring rental income and paying taxes?
You are coming off quite racist in this quote. None of this applies in this case, so is irrelevant anyway.

I think of the poor people who live in a lot worse conditions than the chinese who don't have money who just want to come here for the opportunity at a better life and to stay alive, who would hopefully respect our country enough to respect it, contribute to it and do the right thing by it.

Generalisation here. There are many hardworking Chinese people in this country that have assimilated quite well. This is another quote that has racist tones.
i have paid my taxes and alot of them over the past 10 years and i don't like thinking of the migrants who come here and don't.
i don't like of migrants coming here bringing their culture when it insults ours in terms of what is acceptable and we have just have to be okay with it otherwise we are considered racist.

Another racist quote. What has the owner of your unit done to have you insult her in such a manner as to say that she is not paying her taxes and insulting our culture?

if i moved to another country i would accept there culture and wouldn't just do whatever i felt like. imagine me going to live in a strict muslim community in a muslim country where they fully cover head to toe and i just stroll down the street in my shorts and shirt cos hey that's my culture. or during prayer time i just say bugger it i'm going for a jog. do think they would be embracing my culture when it is an insult to theres? i think not.
In some Muslim areas, it is not just their culture to cover up, it is the law, so you would be in whole lot of strife if you did not. But again, irrelevant to this issue.
anyway i have learnt my lesson. if in a share house, there will be a lease.

Good luck with that. It would be a rare thing to be tied to a lease in a share situation.
there will be no more sharing with landlords even though i know a few people who have had great success with sharing with landlords cos you wouldnt even know they are the landlord which is how it should be (unless it is specificially a boarding type arrangement).

i am out of here thursday week and counting down the days.
no more asian landlords or flatmates for me.
hopefully i will win lotto and i can just my own place - ah bliss

I think the problem lies with you, personally. This lady has bought a unit and is getting someone in to share to help with expenses. Nothing wrong with that. People all over the country have been doing that since the day dot. She does not have to declare this income. The relative coming & staying could be a little selfish, but it is her property and as such, well, if you don't like it you can move.

I believe you said in another post that you were unemployed. If that is the case, why don't you get a job, save your money and purchase your own place.

 

[Perp]

i still have doubts as to whether this income isn't taxable even as a boarder. The $200 a week covers everything. I doubt my share of expenses per week is $200 so surely there is an excess that is beneficial to my owner/landlord.

It's not taxable. If she declared the income, she could claim all sorts of things - a portion of mortgage interest, council rates, depreciation on fittings, electricity, cleaning costs, etc, and she'd almost certainly end up with a taxable loss and a subsidy from the government. It's for this reason that you are, in fact, instructed by the ATO not to claim either income or expenses for share house situations.

She was being sneaky, she didnt want to sign a form cos it would risk her being found out she is renting a room out.

You're not clear on the rules, either! She may have been unsure, but in fact, she's not doing anything wrong.

The inviting 3 people to stay without asking a flatmate she says is what you do in china so i am supposed to accept that and be okay with it even though i am an australian in australia.

Has it ever occurred to you, that it never occurred to her, that you'd be upset? She may not be flouting (what you consider) accepted Australian norms to upset you, she may not even be aware of these norms! How could an immigrant possibly know what the usual etiquette is with sharing houses in Australia? These kinds of conventions vary even between Australian families, which is why it should be discussed before living together.

I could have possibly had to pay back a few hundred dollars because she wasn't doing the right thing and was trying to hide it. do you think i needed that stress?

She wasn't doing anything wrong. If you wanted to claim a subsidy, you should have told her prior to entering into the arrangement, IMHO. I think you've probably caused your landlord a lot more stress than vice-versa.

If you have ever spent time in China, or Asia in general, you'll realise that most people there do things like this when they can. It is in their psyche to get what they can and to look after themselves and their fmailies in their own way.

Having shared our home with a Vietnamese family for 6 years, I can only agree with gg1965 that many Asians have a different ethic than we do. That doesn't make it right or wrong, though I have shared your frustration, Lou, when they conflict. What I don't share is your righteous indignation that they should know all our cultural norms and immediately embrace them. If you moved to Asia, would you immediately begin cramming 5 people per bedroom, in order to fit in with their cultural norms? Having only one person per bedroom would seem very spoiled and selfish!

Also as gg1965 suggests, until you've walked a mile in their shoes... I didn't eat grass as a child, because there was no food to eat due to the "American War". I didn't have the government tell my parents that they weren't allowed to live together, because "the Party" required one to work in one place, and the other hundreds of km away. I haven't felt the fear of losing my job and knowing that there is no Centrelink to fall back on; only my family and friends. Of course I'm going to treat my family and friends differently when I know that they're all that's between me and starvation, than I do in our individualistic western society. They don't have the luxury of being able to only think of themselves as an individual.

I have made it quite clear to her that most Australian's would not put up with what i have had to so i think she is going to get in a chinese student in.

I think that's a good idea for both parties.

There is a big cultural difference between us, I am aware of that based on what she has told me about families in China. but she is not in china, she is in Australia and she is living with an australian so she can't just expect me to accept that she is bringing her culture here so just deal with it

Actually, given that it's her home and she's not breaking any laws, I think it's entirely reasonable for her to expect that you'll fit into her culture, rather than you expecting her to adopt yours.

 

[Francesco]

I think SS forumers are quite an understanding lot in responding to Lou's unhappy situation and attitude towards her (?) Chinese landlady. GG the academic has shown clued-in sensitivities to the Asian culture.

I like to point out that the landlady from her perspectives is demonstrating an unselfish attitude in allowing her relatives the freedom of her apartment and the use of her space and belongings. It's what many in many cultures would say demonstrate 'hospitality' and 'generosity' of character. Of course, Lou apparently expected exclusivity of use in the apartment and in the initial negotiations there may have been misunderstandings over who else can share in the use of the apartment. The landlady may have thought that there will be no more paying 'guests' but did not realise that Lou meant also who else can stay in her room as well.

Many in the forum has pointed out that the landlady probably wasn't doing anything illegal but Lou has an opinion that the landlady is doing something unfamiliar and presumably illegal. This has not been shown to be the case yet under Australian law and culture.

The landlady is probably not the model and embodiment of all the underhand practices of migrants of a certain race but entangled in misunderstandings.

Migrants 'sweat the dollar' at every monetary issue because there is a built-in mental process of valuing a transaction which in this case involves magnifying the undervalued Chinese Yuan (or HK dollar) currency that was used to the Australian currency, by a factor in the range of 4-6.

 

[josko]

hi all,

It seems lou is emotional in her responses and maybe her judgement is clouded by this.

Lou,

I think you are doing the right thing by moving out, as the situation is obviously not working for you.

Kind Regards JO

 

[Lou]

When i say rorting the system i meant she isn't declaring the rental which she should be, regardless of whether there is a profit in the end or not.
I have an accounting background, i know about rental income and deductions, i dealt with clients on the matters for 6 years up until 2006, i just wasn't 100% sure on how it worked when the landlord also lives in the place, although my gut told me she should be declaring the rental which is why i have carried this attitude for the most part through this forum.
And this was just confirmed by the ATO.

You are making a gain (I'm not talking about profit/gain for tax purposes) if what you receive is in excess of what covers the running costs only (rates, elect, phone, internet). This is regardless of whether it's a boarder/sharer.
The rental needs to be declared to the ATO. It does not matter whether there is an overall taxable gain or loss.

NOTE: A mortgage or interest charged on a mortgage is not considered a 'running cost'. If you charge extra to cover this expense, you are making a
gain in excess of the 'running costs'.

I pay over $800 a month, I'd say $200-$250 is to cover my share of 'running costs'.
She is making a gain therefore she should be declaring the rental/boarding situation to the ATO. Would she making a taxable profit or loss, who knows, who cares. it's irrelevant.

if you are unsure when you decide to rent a room, you make a simple call to the ATO to check or check with your Accountant. Then there is no 'grey' area. It is black or white, simple as that. Maybe that is just the accountant coming out in me.

If she found this out and did the right thing by declaring, I wouldn't be in this situation. There would not be a problem with signing a form because she has nothing to hide. And i wouldn't have to move so soon. And at this time of year. Yeah i wanted to move anyway when i could, the drama's of people always over seems to have stopped for now so i would have put up with the other stuff til the new year so i'd have a roof over my head.
it is hard enough being unemployed as it is without this added crap and stress. so apologies if i seem emotional about it.

I have more than expressed my views with her over a lot of things. When the friend and the friends parents turned up I was livid and I told her exactly what I thought. For a half an hour actually and she just didn't care, just accepted me to accept what was happening. I explained her options for the rent last week and that if she was to declare to the ATO, there may not any issue in terms of taxable rental income if she was just worried about having to pay tax. It does not matter what i say, she just consults all her chinese friends who are doing exactly what she's doing and they advise her on collecting rent cash in hand so there is no trace of income.

There was no misunderstanding in the beginning. I was thorough to avoid this bu&&*hit from happening. I expressed I was over living with lots of people, i just wanted to live with 1 other. that i wanted a home for as long i was there. i did not want a nagging landlord complaining about every little thing.
i gave her examples of previous share houses in the last 12 years, things i did not want a repeat of. that is why i chose to live with someone a bit older.
if what i wanted was not what she wanted, she should have said so straight away. she didn't so no i don't think i'm at fault here. i don't care if it's her apartment or not, i was honest upfront with what i wanted, she should have been too.

she should never have lived with an australian if she wants to live how the chinese do. i don't know Australia who would put up with what i've had to in general. she isn't new to oz, she moved here in 2000 and stayed for 6 years before she went back to china for 2 years and now she has come back.
i think the issue is she has not assimilated or intergrated. she has only chinese friends, she lives in an asian neighbourhood and in previous share-houses, she has only lived with chinese.
i think after this experience she will be sticking with that. the culture differences are too big where general living is considered.

and no sharehouses aren't all like this. they have there issues but generally if you are both renting a place, there is consideration there in regards to people coming over etc. the place is yours equally.
i should have just stuck to my guns in the first place and not lived with a landlord. i needed a place til i got a job, we seemed to want the same things in a flatmate so i moved in. so sue me

 

[fokas]

it's disgraceful as far as i'm concerned, anything to get a bit of extra dough.
interest rates go up and she does what she can to get more cash out of me when i'm unemployed.

It is especially disgusting when i know she has a damn good job and salary.
I have put up with a lot since living here, people coming and going, cramming 5 people into a 2 bedroom unit without even consulting me. not to mention these people have a key to originally let themselves in - not fun having strangers walk in on a weekday arvo unexpectedly.
i shouldn't even be as considerate as i am being.
reading the rules this definitely never was a share house and i am a boarder.

Blah blah blah. Why are you whinging and complaining? You're the one who decided to live there - cash in hand. Without a lease or contract. Knowing that she's the owner.

Move out and move on.

 

[fokas]

hopefully i will win lotto and i can just my own place - ah bliss

Or maybe learn something from this site and work towards it.

Good luck.

 

[skater]

Blah blah blah. Why are you whinging and complaining? You're the one who decided to live there - cash in hand. Without a lease or contract. Knowing that she's the owner.

Move out and move on.

Lou, I am totally over your whinging and complaining, and I'm not even living with you. You seem to think that you are 100% correct and your flatmate is 100% wrong.

I doubt that you have an accounting background either, or you would know that:

A) In a share house situation the owner/head tenant has the right to let out a room and this is not counted as an income. It is a share in the costs of accommodation.

B) In the instance that the owner does declare the income, then they also have the right to declare 1/2 of the mortgage and all other costs.

So, maybe you should just rent by yourself or get a job and purchase something to live by yourself, because you seem to get very emotional, very quickly.

 

[Lou]

i am done with this. you have your opinion i have mine. no doubt alot of you own properties yourself and do something similar or haven't been in this situation.
people i have discussed it with who don't own their own homes and who rent seem to think it's madness what i've had to put up with, the form aside.
each to their own.

@ skater i was an Accountant for 6 years, giving tax advice and all heaven forbid.
you may want to check your facts with the ATO or delete what you think you know. your second point is right, your first is not.
there are two issues, the rules for whether there is financial gain (nothing to nothing to do with mortages or interest paid - to do with RUNNING COSTS only). if you receive an excess of the RUNNING COSTS, it is considered a financial gain and all income and expenses should be reported to the ATO. Then it can be determined whether there is a TAXABLE PROFIT OR LOSS on the rental.
read it, it is really quite simple. or ring the ATO for your own clarification.

I told my landlord tonight what the ATO said and she said 'yeah i know i should be declaring the rental but i'm not going to'. so what does that tell u - there was never a grey area, she always knew. hence the cash in hand business which for the record was not how it started. i paid the bond and first 2 weeks rent to her bank account before her friends apparently advised her to do cash in hand to avoid a paper trail.

anyone i will stop my whinging and complaining. i'm done with this thread.
thank you to all those that have contributed. and those who think i'm a right pain in the ar&se i hope one day you are in my situation let's see how you feel.

 

[Hooray]

i am done with this. you have your opinion i have mine. no doubt alot of you own properties yourself and do something similar or haven't been in this situation.
people i have discussed it with who don't own their own homes and who rent seem to think it's madness what i've had to put up with, the form aside.
each to their own.

Hmm. Why, how surprising. People who don't own their own homes agree with you. Birds of a feather.....

anyone i will stop my whinging and complaining. i'm done with this thread.
thank you to all those that have contributed. and those who think i'm a right pain in the ar&se i hope one day you are in my situation let's see how you feel.

Personally I never will be. Even if I decide not to live in the properties I own, I'll just rent. With a written lease.

 

[Hooray]

@ skater i was an Accountant for 6 years, giving tax advice and all heaven forbid.
you may want to check your facts with the ATO or delete what you think you know. your second point is right, your first is not.
there are two issues, the rules for whether there is financial gain (nothing to nothing to do with mortages or interest paid - to do with RUNNING COSTS only). if you receive an excess of the RUNNING COSTS, it is considered a financial gain and all income and expenses should be reported to the ATO. Then it can be determined whether there is a TAXABLE PROFIT OR LOSS on the rental.

Actually I've never seen the phrase 'financial gain' in relation to the ATO. Where in the tax legislation is this phrase used? Enlighten me.

 

[skater]

@ skater i was an Accountant for 6 years, giving tax advice and all heaven forbid.

Funny, no decent Accountant that I know is unemployed and living in share housing.

 

[Piston Broke]

Lou there aint many people i know that did'nt have to go thru the **** to get anywhere decent.
It's part of life. If you're a qualified accountant, then you have a good chance of getting yourself out of that situation sooner rather than later imo.
There's a reason everybody here harks on forever about "choices".
The money means nothing (you can't take it with you), but what it can buy means the difference between enduring that for a short time, a longer time, or the rest of your life.
As for the Chinese you need to understand that for them that is probably a considerable improvement in lifestyle, that's why they emigrate.
As for "rorting", anyone who deals with accountants know there's plenty of them "rorting the system" also. But that's not the point.
And with all due respect, it seems to me you have plenty of your own issues to deal with than worry about those that come & go from China.
There's only one direction: forward!

 

[kathryn d]

Not sure about the others here, but I would rather have someone making a profit and not declaring it, than having someone collecting money from Centerlink because they were unemployed.

Lou may have checked with ATO, but depending on the correct phrasing of the question, the answer would be different.
Did Lou say the landlord was renting a room, or sharing her home?

 

[Perp]

In fairness to Lou, the rules on declaration of this income do sound a bit different to my understanding. Though I guess it's possible, since this is over 20 years old, that the rules have been modified...

Arms length letting of an identified part of a residence, e.g. a bedroom, with access to general living areas

Whatever the ATO rules are, it seems almost certain that there'd be no tax payable (ie she could rack up sufficient deductions to more than cover the $200 per week).

Lou, expecting your landlord not to extend hospitality to her family in her own home is completely unreasonable.

People who come to Australia have to abide by Australian law, but Australian culture is actually many cultures, depending on who you ask; it's subjective and changes over time as new influences are incorporated. If it's length of time in the country that's the determinant of who's a "true" Aussie, then I assume you're happy for Aboriginal cultural norms to be imposed on all of us?