Myths....don't believe them

One example does not prove a point definitively, but it does provide evidence to disprove some long held property myths. Given the learned views on SS, this might not be news, but i thought worthwhile to share.

This 2 br flat sold yesterday in North Balwyn sold at auction yesterday for $347,500 with 3 genuine bidders. I was one of the non genuines! Would rent in its current condition at around $340pw. Outgoings (owners cop, council & water rates) are approx $2200per annum. This property was owned by investors who had it rented out since 1998.

In September 2008 I purchased & settled flat 10 in the same block for $340,000. It's condition in relation to the one that sold yesterday was that it was slightly better, but not by much. In June 2010 my flat was sold and settled for $450,000. I added window furnishings and a split system at a cost of $3500. My rent for the property started at $305pw and the last rent was $320pw. Why did I sell? The prospective prices being paid were too high relative to rents and rents were not increasing at anything other than a normal rate.

I was lucky in that my purchase coincided with post GFC pessimism and price rise was in part due to government stimulus often discussed on SS.

Myth 1: time in the market not timing the market...
So in two years, these owners have 'lost' an opportunity to be $100,000 ahead. And its not as if they were living there and didn't suit their life plans and sell. The nature of the property market is such that you can make judgements from timing. The are some assets which are definitively long term holds, but others are much shorter term in nature. It's important amongst all the other things to understand where your property fits into this picture.

Myth 2: Inner city property doesn't get affected as much as fringe suburbs properties...
We could debate whether North Balwyn does fit into inner city given its 11kms out of the CBD, probably the next ring out to inner city. But it is very well desired especially because of amongst other things, its in the Balwyn High School Zone. Well, this is one example where prices have dropped 22% of its peak (assuming $450k was the peak for this property). No this isn't Point Cook, Tarneit or Pakenham!!.

Myth 3: Below median priced properties are more resilient to price downturns. This is only a mathematical argument. If you are investing, a 22% loss is material whether you have invested $900k or $450k. A property at a lower price has no less a reason to fall than its higher priced alternatives.

I often hear some of these old chestnuts used and do cringe when i hear them, because there are no absolutes in property investing. Good luck and be careful out there...:)
 
Looks a great buy at 347k.

5% yield on a 'great' buy. And that's not including purchasing costs, ongoing fee's etc. I'll pass.

Sounds like you timed that well Buzz, and I agree with what you're saying. The same thing is the case with shares - should the underlying assets value not increase with the sale-able price, it may be worth offloading and redirecting funds elsewhere, and or re-enter after corrections.

The question is whether you can accurately time when a bull run is finishing, and whether exit/re-entry costs will erode your position too much.
 
Interesting example buzzlightyear, thanks for sharing.

Can't but help but feel a little sorry for the person that bought yours at the top, assuming they purchased as an investment:
$100k down in value.
Approx $10k pa in interest not covered by rent (+$2200 pa outgoings).
+ Increased stamp duty they paid on higher price.
+ Property management fees & other associated costs.

They are probably down a good $130k or almost 30% of purchase price by now.

If it was a median income earner who purchased with a high LVR then they might be trapped with the property in which case they will continue paying interest on money borrowed (in excess of the current value of the property)... this sort of mistake could burden them for a long time (e.g. could take a decade to turn positive cash flow).

Property investing can be risky business (as can all types of investing).
 
Myth 1: time in the market not timing the market...

So in two years, these owners have 'lost' an opportunity to be $100,000 ahead. And its not as if they were living there and didn't suit their life plans and sell. The nature of the property market is such that you can make judgements from timing. The are some assets which are definitively long term holds, but others are much shorter term in nature. It's important amongst all the other things to understand where your property fits into this picture.

Two years is considered time in the market?

I thought time in the market was 10 to 12 years to take advantage of a cycle
 
Two years is considered time in the market?

I thought time in the market was 10 to 12 years to take advantage of a cycle

Buzz's point is that timing the market is more important, regardless of how long the period is. If a government incentive is going to cause a rapid $100k escalation and an equally fast drop when it is withdrawn, you want to be quickly in and out, rather than holding and hoping long term.

Currently, similar opportunities are likely to exist in holding land packages in NSW and QLD, as occurred around 2009 in West Melbourne suburbs, due to the $15k new first home grant.

Land prices jumped from $140k to $220k in about 6 months in areas like Tarneit and Truganina in Melbourne in 2009, due to massive FHB incentives for new properties and low interest rates. These same conditions exist in NSW and QLD now. Find an area which is affordable and has limited short term land supply, get in and out on land which has several months until settlement, find a new buyer just before settlement and sell at a premium. Ideal market timing to make some quick money with little down.

The person who purchased off Buzz may not see the market get back to their purchase price in the next 10 years.
 
I often hear some of these old chestnuts used and do cringe when i hear them, because there are no absolutes in property investing. Good luck and be careful out there...

Can I add another........"never buy in State housing areas- low socio demo you are bound to lose your shirt"




Cheers, MTR
Marisa
http://www.wheredopuppiescomefrom.com.au/
 
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Buzz's point is that timing the market is more important, regardless of how long the period is.


Nevertheless, IMHO you need to be "aware" of the market (and to me therefore "time in the market" - whether you money is in there or not) to time specific buy/sell moves.

The Y-man
 
But, how many "investors" buy a property hold a property for two years, thinking that's enough and then bemoan the market when they sell and hardly make any money or make a loss? It is great of you can time the market, but this can really only be done looking backwards as data is released. Better to have time in the market and if you happen to time it as well then all the better.
 
I was lucky in that my purchase coincided with post GFC pessimism and price rise was in part due to government stimulus often discussed on SS.

You said it buzz: you were lucky.

You’re not comparing 2 strategies (time in the market vs timing the market) but a lucky investor vs an unlucky one.

If I was someone believing in the first strategy (time in the market) I could have concluded: an unlucky investor with a good strategy can lose out to a lucky investor with a less good strategy.

But I wouldn’t draw any definite conclusion out of this.

If you had been unlucky in your timing of the market and lost money it wouldn’t ensue that your strategy could be labelled a “myth”.
 
Hi Buzz

Well done - good result. Thanks for posting.

While on the surface a $110k profit looks great I thought I would run some calcs on my guess of your costs. If you don't mind it would be good if you had real numbers for these:

Stamp Duty and closing costs on the way in - $13k?
Agents fees to sell - $13k?
-ve gearing holding costs - circa $3k per year post tax (wild guess - dunno about depreciation) x 2 years = $6k?
Reno costs - $3.5k?
Miscellaneous expenses - $0.5k?

Total = $36k

So $450k - $340k - $36k = $74k taxable profit.
Tax on profit (assuming 40% marginal tax rate and 50% CGT discount) = circa $15k.

Therefore post tax profit = $74k - $15k = $59k.

Still a good result but helpful to do the numbers to check how much money is really in it at the end of the day. What initially looks like $110k profit gets quickly cut back to circa $60k. As I said, I would be interested in your view of the numbers.

Particularly illuminating for me is how far ahead you need the price to get before you make any money at all.

Anyway - well done again.
 
Oh no!......I have failed...committed the ultimate Faux Paux of buying a lot of ex state housing properties.....better round around flailing my arms like a mad man! ;)

I often hear some of these old chestnuts used and do cringe when i hear them, because there are no absolutes in property investing. Good luck and be careful out there...

Can I add another........"never buy in State housing areas- low socio demo you are bound to lose your shirt"




Cheers, MTR
Marisa
http://www.wheredopuppiescomefrom.com.au/
 
Hi Buzz

Well done - good result. Thanks for posting.

While on the surface a $110k profit looks great I thought I would run some calcs on my guess of your costs. If you don't mind it would be good if you had real numbers for these:

Stamp Duty and closing costs on the way in - $13k?
Agents fees to sell - $13k?
-ve gearing holding costs - circa $3k per year post tax (wild guess - dunno about depreciation) x 2 years = $6k?
Reno costs - $3.5k?
Miscellaneous expenses - $0.5k?

Total = $36k

So $450k - $340k - $36k = $74k taxable profit.
Tax on profit (assuming 40% marginal tax rate and 50% CGT discount) = circa $15k.

Therefore post tax profit = $74k - $15k = $59k.

Still a good result but helpful to do the numbers to check how much money is really in it at the end of the day. What initially looks like $110k profit gets quickly cut back to circa $60k. As I said, I would be interested in your view of the numbers.

Particularly illuminating for me is how far ahead you need the price to get before you make any money at all.

Anyway - well done again.

Absolutely true. I have to say, when I purchased, this was always going to be a long term hold, which is really the reason why I posted about this. The post tax profit for memory is about right, I think I worked it out to be $61k. But there's the rub, after ~18 months, the opportunity to make that profit, even when I was in for the long term, was obvious enough for me to take it and realise the gain. There was little more upside IMO in the short term in terms of price, and I could take these realised funds and do something else with them.

I would take an extra $30k net of tax income bonus per annum (which this essentially became) for even a lot more work and renovation related stresses. Unfortunately, they aren't that easy to find at least in Melbourne metro......

If my personal circumstances were different, I would have purchased. A fully renovated apartment (quality spec) sold in the same block in mid 2011 for $485k....you could spend $25k, hold for 12 months with rent in the high 3s and sell for I would suggest mid to high 4s in 2014. Not a fortune, but a nice profit nonetheless for a relatively straightforward project.
 
You said it buzz: you were lucky.

You’re not comparing 2 strategies (time in the market vs timing the market) but a lucky investor vs an unlucky one.

If I was someone believing in the first strategy (time in the market) I could have concluded: an unlucky investor with a good strategy can lose out to a lucky investor with a less good strategy.

But I wouldn’t draw any definite conclusion out of this.

If you had been unlucky in your timing of the market and lost money it wouldn’t ensue that your strategy could be labelled a “myth”.

Yes my timing provided me extra profit which had nothing to do with my efforts, well aside from making the choice to purchase it, funding it and self managing the property whilst rented. But we are in furious agreement on that point.

The real point however was contrasting the other investor ( ie the one that sold last weekend) who had owned it since 1998. We all know the lumpiness of price growth spurts in property, which is the crux of the matter. They would have been in a better position to understand the price movements since 1998 in this block. So my assumption is that if one is staying close to the market, even if you are not planning to sell, sometimes surprises do eventuate and dictate a change of tact. For whatever reason they missed 2009/2010 price growth but what is true, is that it cost them an opportunity to make another $100k on the selling price.

Yes they were in the market for 14 years and probably would have done very nicely out of this, but not as good if they had sold in 2010.
 
The post tax profit for memory is about right, I think I worked it out to be $61k. But there's the rub, after ~18 months, the opportunity to make that profit, even when I was in for the long term, was obvious enough for me to take it and realise the gain.

You don't go broke making a profit. If you put $61k into your pocket for a few hours work then I say well done.

It's not how I choose to do things, but that doesn't mean you didn't do well out of it!
 
It sure can, and this is why it's important to do good DD and have a clear strategy, rather than just buyng anything, anytime and hoping...

Agree, agree, agree....to any newbiw please HAVE A STRATEGY

We did and it out $240k in only 2 years in our pocket.

Regards Peter
 
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