National Investment Institute (NII)

I found this article in the Australian Financial Review dated December 7 2002.

This is a little more evidence to be cautious. Lucky for me I was.

Deposit bonds lure unwary: Macfarlane

Reserve Bank of Australia governor Ian Macfarlane warned on Friday that investors using deposit bonds to buy units or apartments might face losses when they eventually took possession of their property.

Mr Macfarlane said deposit bonds - which are sold by insurance companies - made it easy for people to enter the market by buying off the plan with a much smaller outlay.

"Now you can go along to an insurance company [and] buy a deposit bond for hundreds of dollars, not thousands of dollars [for a deposit]," he said.

"The insurance company will then guarantee the developer that the deposit will be paid upon completion and you just sit back and wait for 18 months. The cost to you is negligible.

"Then suddenly in 18 months, when you take possession, then you've got to get the full finance and that may be a point you start having regrets about what you did 18 months ago, which was so easy to do."

Mr Macfarlane's renewed concern about an overheated investment property market came at Friday's semi-annual appearance by the RBA before the House of Representatives economics committee.

It followed data showing strong growth in building approvals for higher-density property in October and continued growth in house prices in the September quarter.

Deposit bonds have become popular among property investors because they enable people to delay putting down a 10 per cent deposit.

The deposit bonds, which cost about $700, effectively let people enter the market without a deposit.

Mr Macfarlane said the reduced amount needed to enter the property market was one of the reasons for the housing boom.

"People can actually make these investments on almost 100 per cent gearing," he told the committee.

"It is so accessible that people on very modest incomes are being persuaded by the big seminars that are run by the property development companies that they can get rich too by buying these apartments.

"If the investor is quite wealthy and has their own home with a lot of equity in their own home, they just tighten their belt.

"If something happens, if they lose their job or there's a divorce, then they actually could conceivably realise quite a big loss."

Earlier this year the RBA forecast that the housing market would cool this year. However, after recent strong data, it now expects that the market will not slow until 2003.

Figures released this week showed building approvals surged by a record 69 per cent in October.

Mr Macfarlane described the latest approvals data as "bizarre" and said it was unlikely most of the new projects would be built because some developers were already shelving projects.

Regards
Eco....
 
Hi Economic


On a slight tangent, a client I sat with last nite said I want to fix all my loans because Mr McFarlane said that the RBA would raise rates by up to 2 % over the next 18 months.

I tend to ignore the media where possible so this may be what the RBA governer said.

I cant help ponder what liability lies where for someone that fixes on such advice and in the event "loses" tens of thousands of dollars.

One would argue that a "reasonable" person would assume you could not get a better assessment on interest rate moves than from the RBA itself.

ta

Rolf
 
Originally posted by Aceyducey
I think you're reading too much into my message (and possibly others)

I deliberately didn't name posts - it was a general comment about what has happened in the past with NII posts. If people don't like the NII and the way it operates - then sure, post your concerns (like Economic did) - but people in general tend to get a little hysterical about the whole thing.

Originally posted by Aceyducey
Personally I have no opinion on the NII, except the poor impression I get from anonymous posters, which I get on ANY TOPIC on which there are anonymous posters.

Ahh... but are you not anonymous too Aceyducey ? How do people know who you are ?

As to the post in question - an opinion was offered, and people are entitled to their opinion, especially if they are able to express it in a calm and rational manner.

I am not defending the NII - other than their rights to free speech. Economic posted a good warning about his experiences with the organisation. If other people have concerns, then feel free to express them. But please also let people express their positive experiences or opinions. People should be able to weigh up the pros and cons for themselves.

There have been some very good posts in this thread - please don't think I am criticising everyone here.

Let us keep the hysteria and the "let's bag it because everyone else does" to a minimum folks.
 
Ok Sim

As the first of the attackers of "date" my comments may have been taken as a little negative. However this thread was started by economic with a detailed personal example of his(or her) negative experience with the marketing style of NII.

"date" has effectively attacked economic by totally disagreeing with economic with enormously helpful comments like "bloody great".

I have no personal experience of NII, but I do have a problem with ALL the so called guru's who run expensive courses, be it property,shares, commodities, or motivational!!

The VERY best sources of information have always been practical books by people who have found a method that is successful for themselves and been prepared to share. Jan's books are perfect examples.

This forum with the knowledge that resides amongst it's contributors is definately worth much more than any course, no matter how much it costs.I dips my lid to you all.;)

My original questions to "date" stand. Please give us some EXAMPLES of how the NII course helped you??

sorry for the long post

Bye
 
Hey Sim,

If someone wants to know who I am they can simply ask.

I only use a nick because most people do.

And there is a difference between someone who uses a nick, posts regularly & provides a working email address and someone who posts once using the date as their nick and has an email address that bounces (I've tried it).

Cheers,

Craig Thomler
(partner of Jas)
 
Originally posted by Bill.L
The VERY best sources of information have always been practical books by people who have found a method that is successful for themselves and been prepared to share. Jan's books are perfect examples.

The VERY best sources IN YOUR OPINION ! :p

Originally posted by Bill.L
My original questions to "date" stand. Please give us some EXAMPLES of how the NII course helped you??

I would also like to see this - many of the posts in this thread have requested such information - which would add a lot of value to the discussion. 091202 ?
 
NII strengths are in teaching people about due diligence, settlement terms, valuations, tenant agreements, negotiation, mezzanine, avoid using your own money, creative financial concepts, JVs and teamwork.

They are weaker at renovation strategies, adding value and don't focus much on stuff for the average joe. They cater more for the serious deal making/sophisticated investor you might say. But its a mix of people at all levels. Some of the most successful people have formed into groups or syndicates. Others don't apply the knowledge and waste their time.

They have good support structures with informal meetings, Q&A sessions, excellent for networking, great opportunity to learn from like minded people. How do you quantify having an informal Q&A with the chief of an (independant) major finance broking organisation? It has a club vibe that I personally find very appealing.

Agreed that books may offer better 'bang for the buck' but, it's sometimes not what you know but who. It's sorta the next level up from books if you are super committed to bigger property deals and networking.
 
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091202,
Based on what you have posted, it seems that the course is clearly not for beginners. As you yourself mentioned, most of the stuff is not for the average joe. I don't know if you are able to answer this question, but I will ask it anyway.
"Why, if the course is not for beginners (I assume) does the NII direct it's marketing campaign at those with little or no experience in real estate investing?"
I'm not trying to be a smartarse or anything, this is a genuine question.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'

P.S. You still haven't told us what the course has given to you personally.
 
Thanks for that date!

I understand what you said, and appreciate you posting it, but I still wonder if it's worth the money.

Don't misunderstand me, I understand that sometimes you (the generic 'you', not you personally :) ) need to be shown something in a 'course' manner, before it sinks in, and to make it workable, but having read through what you feel you got from the course, I don't think there's anything there that couldn't have been learned here on the forum, as an example.

This comment is irrelevant as to whether it is NII or anyone else, so don't think I am attacking you or NII... I'm not...

Just the psychology of the "Packaged_info_for_big_bucks" versus the "find it yourself" method is interesting.

I have often said, there are only two types of currency, money and time... I guess in your case you invested money... You could have invested your time and found out the same info... I just find it really interesting to find out what others do and think about this...

asy :D
 
Sim

Yes It's my opinion that books are useful. But if I REALLY tried hard I think I could find one or two others on this forum who found Jan's books of benefit.:p
Also Sim, I think that the contribution you make to this forum is fantastic in both time and effort and I ernestly thank you for it, however it doesn't mean we can't have a difference of opinion. Now at the risk of being deleted ......



"date" as you have obviously been monitoring this thread please answer some basic questions about how this course helped you. What you have written says many glowing things about NII but does little in the way of practicalities. You claim that (spending the amount of a deposit of an IP) on this course has helped you. So tell us where it got YOU.

This is now the third time I have asked this and your replies are very scant in any detail. I don't particularly care which mover or shaker you may have met at NII, the advice on this forum is definately more bang for buck than spending 15K.

Again I ask, What did you invest in and how did it perform as a consequence of your involvement with NII??

Please explain???


bye
 
Hi,

Okay, you want to hear it facts from one that turned to the darkside, from someone you know?

Right, I did the HK Mastery course when it was $3k, I've also spent money on Mcknight courses, Brad Sugar and Option trading courses, in leiu of books and mentors, seminar's help "jump start" my quest for information.

Anyway the basics of HK, when I did it were;

1) Know thy area - if you select a very small area and know it well, then you can judge bargins when they occur.
2) Know thy tenant - target a niche tenant - cater to their whims to enable you to increase rent
3) Know thy fixtures - keep up to date with the latest trends in fixtures (appliances, lights, door handles), ideally learn to co-ordinate, and they shop for "cheaper" copies of such.
4) Understand deposit bonds - this is to learn to use little money down
5) Split the contracts - if you can get the developer to split the contract into house&land you can save $$$ on stamp duty.
6) Negotiate discounts via bulk buy - this I think was the big play and cornerstone of the technique. Forming "buying groups" to acquire multiple properties.

My mind did open to new ideas and ways of thinking, but...

I was not comfortable with;

a) Buying property at those price ranges $300k+
b) The speculation involved in needing to onsell
c) The servicing level risks
d) The time needed for research (I live out west, and market was East Syd) - too much of a commute

I'd still attend a seminar if I thought to topic was interesting, I'm the kind of person that needs motivation every now and then, but if you can find a mentor, then you're infront too. Books are good for learning terms, but for some, converting text into actual working examples can be hard. People absorb information differently (visually, auditory, touch). This forum is good for auditory, but lacks visual aids, whereas people who's strongest sense is touch would need a hands-on workshop to understand.

This is where investment groups and meetings help.

Maybe when Michael Croft runs a course, he could do a hands-on workshop, eg he sets up a syndicate, the "seminar fees" go into that, that buys a house - and everyone works on the project learning and taking turns doing stuff, then at the end of the course the house is sold.

A pass/fail mark is whether there's a profit or a loss :p

Just a thought.

Michael G
 
Thanks for your posts michaelg & 091202, they give me a clearer picture of what the NII are about & what type of material to expect.

Has anyone thought of setting up a site listing all the different Investment Seminar/Course/Materials providers in Oz where the people running them can give their spiel, they can be sorted by area/skill level/knowledge required to do the courses & 'graduates' can give their views on the programmes?

Open to abuse I know, but would still be handy to allow newbies to quickly get a level of assessment about what's on offer. I've seen a lot of posts lately from people asking whether a specific course or book/writer is any good.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
AceyDucey,

Anyone posting negative details about a course opens themselves to litigation for less than favourable opinions posted.

Two (at least) members of the old forum have been threatened with lawsuits for comments in the forum. In fact, I think one just posted out emails after investigating property marketing companies.
 
Dear Geoff,

Personally I feel that the whole issue of lawsuits is well overdone and a whole scare tactic.

Should one person be scared for writing or doing anything simply because they are scared whether someone will sue them at sometime in their lives? (Should you be scared by something that you have written in one of your 471 (so far) posts 20 years in the future?)

On a website how on earth would you be tracked?

-Through the persons name?
-Through the persons e-mail?

Free speech is encouraged.

Saying that you will "SUE" someone is the biggest false scare tactic in the book but a good tool for negotiating with someone who doesn't have a lawyer.

Opinions should be and MUST be encouraged on this forum. Otherwise how will we learn if we are all just sheep and have exactly the same opinion?

That is one of the great parts of this forum. If we take it away we take away a huge part and benefit of this resource -interactivity and free speech.

Cheers,

Sunstone.
 
Sunstone,

I agree that it's not a very good thing not to be able to express an opinion.

The two people I mentioned in the previous incarnation of the forum both had very real threats of lawsuits. It was not just a vague thing. Both, from memory, had to withdraw from posting on on anything for some time (at minimum).

As much as we don't like it, "free speech" isn't really as free any more.

I agree that opinions must be encouraged. And I have stuck my neck out big time in offering opinions.

But, it is still a public place. And, if I say something bad about a company or a service, then that company may choose to sue me. If I really do damage their reputation, unfairly, then perhaps it is in their right to claim that I have caused them economic damage. Though I hope it is not "unfairly". Though that might not even be a defence.

However, I would hope that if I offered an opinion about a broad thing, and not a company specific thing, then I would at least be covered by some sort of site disclaimer. I understand there is something somewhere on the site that mentions something about "advice is personal opinion only". It is something I have raised privately with a Mod a while back, but I have not heard back. That disappoints me.

A slight diversion back to the original thread. Michael G's post, to me, is a very good example of a good balanced post. He gives positives, and negatives. He's done the course, and is not giving any hype. It gives the sort of information which others were looking for from "date". Though there is still the possibility that the course material has been updated- and that MG gets into trouble for misrepresenting. Or even for revealing state secrets (like the Canadian minister who called Dubya a moron :D )
 
Dear Geoff,

Part of my reason for posting on this was that Economic and I had detailed discussion with regards to whether he posted.

I take my hat off to him for having the courage to post information which will help other people on this forum and perhaps get NII to rethink it's marketing tactics.

Property is not bad -but the way it is sold and marketed can be. An alternative viewpoint is that perhaps they (NII) need to relook at what their "customers" really need and can be benefited by and also the price tag etc etc etc.

I stand by what I say with regards to him being safe legally.

Again if all of us were so scared to post due to legal repercussions (which are impossible to take place without any identification) we would not have had the benefit of "Economic's" post and the forum would have been poorer because of it.

These types of posts should NOT be discouraged. However it alerts ourselves to how much personal -easily identifiable information we may permanently post.

On another side Aceyducey does have an interesting suggestion about a list of property investment courses.

Cheers,

Sunstone.
 
no one should feel they need to censor _anything_ that they post

Just PM me your message and Ill post it for you if you wish :p

People can go ahead and _try_ to censor - but 99% of the time the ones that attempt to censor you are the ones that have something to hide - hence if you state the truth (and can prove it) you will have no problems

edit : removed lame joke :)
 
Dear Geoff,

Your posting of the previous links is certainly useful.

However despite all of Gail H's discussion the point is that if you choose not to be identified, then on this forum all discussion on risk becomes irrelevant.

If you post your real name, phone number, address etc etc then yes you could be tracked down if someone was terribly enthusiastic or vindictive...............

Do we know more what happened in the Harvard Securities matter? No.

Anyway the simple point is that whilst lawyers exist, (And yes I do have my own.) the world should not be run from a fear perspective.

Like XBenX said let's look at the positive side of this so that it can be of benefit for all on this forum and not a discouragement to post.

Cheers,

Sunstone.
 
Sunstone,
I think XBenX (are you straight edge Ben?) put it perfectly when he said: "if you state the truth (and can prove it) you will have no problems". The problem is not in the posting, but the ability to prove what you are posting is able to be proven.
The reality is that if you post something that can be considered libelous, even if it is the truth, but you can't prove that it is, then you can get yourself in serious trouble. That's the facts. I don't like it anymore than you, but the laws are there to protect the public from having reputations damaged by lies.
Sure, you could post anonymously, but that doesn't really help. Cause if the group/person you target can't find you, then they can just as easily threaten to sue the Somers' for having libelous slander on their forum. Do we really want to put them in that position?
Look, I'm all for exposing shonky practices and people, but you also need to understand that it is very easy to get on a forum like this and post pure lies about anyone you want. Human nature dictates that there will be more than enough people all too eager to believe whatever you post. Then they go and tell their friends and their friends tell their friends, etc. etc.
The large majority of people in our society like nothing more than to gossip and tear others down, I'm sure you would agree. And this is part of the reason why libel laws are in place.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'
 
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