National Investment Institute (NII)

[geoffw]

Something else I came across in the archives- it would seem as if I can just give advice and be sued-

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=27914#post27914

Which leaves me way open.

However, having posted those previous links, it would seem as if many other companies have been mentioned in an unfavourable light in the forum, and nothing has happened as a result of the postings.

Over the years, in the forum, there have been a lot of positives and negatives about the Investor's Club.

The founder of the club, Kevin Young, did actually post on the forum in rebuttal to things which had been said.

Whatever I think of the club, I respect the use of the forum in that way, rather than in the threat to sue.

 

[XBenX]

yup mark, straight edge

im suprised ppl on the forum know about that kind of thing

 

[Ross Sneddon]

Hi

Sometimes people who work in say this industry of Property, if we look at it in the widest sense can find themselves in a difficult position.

Lets say they are a Real Estate Agent, a Mortgage Broker or a builder or what ever and happen to be at a weekend Bar-b-que having a chat with other like minded people. Not official, all casual, just people meeting in a friendly manner and enjoying the company, a few drinks and a burnt sausage.

Over those few beers and the cooking of the snags, one of the professionals casually says, "I think that such and such a development is going to be a good one. I would put my money there". Just casually. He is not trying a sales pitch.

And someone else in the group at the Barbie then later privately invests funds in that venture and two years go by and the development goes belly up.

The "investor" can come back and sue the "professional" for loss of assets. Even knowing that the advice was given over a weekend Barbie and the offeror of the casual advice was mildly affected by a couple of drinks.

The advice doesn't have to be in a business situation.

Professional Indemnity Insurance costs money each year and is expensive, but the litigant attitude of some people is sometimes hard to fathom.

As professionals, we are all open to being sued on this forum. Perhaps we all need to consider a pseudonym if that works.

Regards

Ross

 

[New Dad Soon]

National Investment Institute (NII) (post #1)

Hi All,

Just thought I'd point out a couple of things in support of the moderator comments about the replies to Economic.

Firstly, posting the NII experience of Economic would be very considered. And some of the replies were supportive, encouraging and sounded mature.

It is however, only an opinion, (and one that Economic has a right to post).

Another point of view could be that becoming a full/part time property investor is like starting a business. How many people out there have the courage to go out and work for themselves full time and take that chance? We all know that many people never could due to FEAR of FAILURE.

Were you to ever start a business, you would need start up capital or money to buy a franchise. In other words, you cannot just begin without a financial commitment of some sort.

How large that commitment is, depends upon the scale and value of your intent.

Now, if you want to just buy two or three properties and live happily ever after, then there are plenty of books to guide the way.

BUT....... If, like most of us, you want to leap frog the 'crowd' and get out in front, then surely you have to make a substantial commitment in order to gain the knowledge. By that I mean in order to become a 'player' in the industry, whether it is property or shares, you have to gain years of knowledge/experience SOMEHOW.

Now, can you go out and do it in years yourself, or pay for it and learn quickly, apply it straight away and accelerate your earnings to pay for the education just as quickly. That depends upon the individual, and their a) ability b) motivation and c) determination

Economic is entitled to withdraw from a course as the focus/fear is upon the cost of the education, not the intent of what to actually DO with it, and I believe any other decision would be wrong.

This is no different to being concerned or having 'buyers remorse' if you had just purchased a $250k book shop ( I have a friend who did this), and realised the enormity of the undertaking.

I was dismayed to see that an alternative opinion offered was attacked and proof of legitimacy demanded like a pack of wolves.

Why then, do the forumites attack someone who supports an opposing point of view? (and I note that some of the active regulars refrained)

eg Give us some solid information to go on, for example how you have personally used this great information to further your property investment. Location of properties, price paid, yield expected, cap growth, etc. (deleted the personal stuff)

You have no right to demand any person to provide details as proof. There are some people offering opinions in this forum, who do not even OWN an IP.

Some time ago, my friend researched a large number of franchise businesses. Curiously, the point of view is not dissimilar

1) The seminar is the initial soft sell. (So was the 'Franchise Expo' she attended)
2) The consultation is the hard sell. (The 'Interview' with the company trainer, followed by the 'tour' of the head office)
3) $15K is an excessive amount of money to be paying for a course. It is actually $20K by the time you pay off the interest over 4 years @ $100/week. ($250,000 inc stock is a lot of money to buy a job when you pay it off over 10 years)
4) If NII was so concerned in educating people, then what is the reason for charging astronomical prices? ($250k for a franchise? why not go and set up your own book shop with lots of stock? ANSWER... because the business model has been proven to WORK)
5) Typically property CAN and WILL go down at times. It just so happens that we have seen an excessively long growth in real estate. (Typically, not everyone likes to read, it just so happens that Australians consume more magazines per capita than just about any other nation)

There are alternative points of view to EVERYTHING. That is what makes life so interesting.

Personally, I have attended MANY courses (inc HK) and I got something out of ALL of them. I now invest FULL TIME.

Until then, I wouldn't have had the b***s to buy a $1.1mil block of t/houses with $1, or a block of apartments at $90k below VAL, or three developments with DEP BONDS and so on.

So before you go harrassing someone else, remember, it is an arrogant person who says they can learn no more, because no matter how much you know, there is always somone you can learn from.

 

[Kevmeister]

NewDadSoon:

I think you make some very good points, but I think the following should be said:

1. I don't recall anyone criticising Economic for his open and honest appraisal. The criticisms were levelled against 'Date', whose first (and possibly only) posts were taken by some people as possibly unsubstantiated and/or unbalanced praise for HK.

2. I don't think you can fairly compare a HK course with a franchise. HK offers nothing but information, well perhaps a self-help network. If all a franchise offered was information, would you pay $250K for it? I don't think so. Most franchisees are investing in a franchise on the strength of the franchise itself (ie. it's name, a'la McDonalds, Baker's Delight, Subway, whatever), not the information.

3. In some cases these franchises are not proven to work, and this is no different possibly to HK's information. Sometimes buying a franchise amounts to nothing more than "buying a job". Franchises are no more a "guaranteed" way to become a millionaire than investing in property using HK's methods. As a franchisee, you may end up with a lemon in terms of an outlet's location. As a property investor, you may end up with a lemon in terms of a property's location, or physical problems with the property itself.

4. The point is that in either case additional due diligence is required on the part of the buyer. HK merely equips his students with enough information to hopefully make an astute decision.

I personally have a neutral attitude towards HK. But when I see the cost of his course compared to other "benchmarks" like a University course, it is *very* expensive.

 

[Sim]

Originally posted by Kevmeister
But when I see the cost of his course compared to other "benchmarks" like a University course, it is *very* expensive.

This is not really an apples for apples type of comparison. In many areas you will see increasing prices as the level of speciality increases.

For example, you could get a 1 hour generic overview of some particular software technology for less than $50 ($50ph), or you can go to a detailed 1 day seminar for about $500 ($62.50ph), or you can go to a deeply technical hands-on class for 2 days for about $2000 ($125ph), or you can get my time one-on-one for something around $250ph.

Or you could get all of the information for free on the 'net ! - that is if you are prepared to do the work to find it and are happy about not having someone to explain it all to you.

See what I mean ?

 

[asy]

Originally posted by Sim
Or you could get all of the information for free on the 'net ! - that is if you are prepared to do the work to find it and are happy about not having someone to explain it all to you.

Well said, Sim...

goes back to my theory of two types of currency... Time and money...

and NDS, just for your (and anyone else who wants to know's) information, I do not currently own ANY property, IP or PPOR. Just in case that makes the information I try to give out any less valuable, then I apologise.

asy

 

[Jamie]

Hi asy,

I can only speak for myself, but I think the information that you share is invaluable and Im glad you take the time to share it. I believe your personal investment situation is irrelevant.

Your apology is NOT ACCEPTED!

Jamie.

 

[asy]

Thanks Jamie..

asy

 

[Kevmeister]

I second Jamie!

 

[Ross Sneddon]

Hi asy

I have followed many of your posts and threads on this forum and respect your comments enormously. You have been free with them all, no strings attached and they are accurate and well thought out. I agree with others, "No apology is necessary".

I have been to seminars and heard speakers spruiking on about how clever they are in property investment.

Many use the reasoning of how many properties they claim to have bought and sold as proof of their guru status. They claim hundreds of properties, thousands of deals and millions of dollars and now own dozens more themselves. They are experts, you ask them and they will tell you so. They claim this as proof.

I attended one seminar not so long ago where the speaker boasted how he could teach you, for a substantial fee, how to do it yourself.

He claimed, "Only last week I bought 45 units and last month I purchased over 200 properties", or something like that.

In reality he MAY have paid the insurance premium for a number of Deposit Bonds. But that is not buying property, no settlement took place. Me thinks they speak with forked tongues.

There is nothing wrong with using Deposit Bonds or purchasing more than one property at a time but in the numbers that these people claim, I have my doubts.

Having many properties or few or none at all at this present time is not the important issue. It is the knowledge and the giving of that knowledge as advice that is important. Thankyou asy.

Then I was always a knockover for a redhead.

Regards

Ross

 

[Bill.L]

I agree with Jamie, and would also add that other forumites who may not have IP,s like Kevmeister, and Mark NHSC, are valueable contributors.

Newdadsoon
I was about to let that one go through to the keeper, but I just had to have a nibble outside the offstump.
My original objection to the reply of "date" was that he didn't tell us anything, he advertised the course.
"Economic" had gone into detail about his experience which was negative, but he backed it up.
The courses run by some of the self professed guru's that cost many thousands of dollars usually end up being a total waste of money. I'm talking property, shares and commodities here. I know of people who spent $10,000 on a weekend commodities course only to find that the info was very basic, of no practical use and advertised heavily the future $5000 refresher courses!! No it was not me.

Going to cheaper courses/talks like Jan's seminars or Steve Navra's weekend would be informative, cost effective, and motivational. You then have plenty of money left over to buy as many books on IP's as you need for further information/motivation.

bye

 

[mustapha]

I wen't to the NII seminar about one month ago. I found out about the seminar from a door knocker who was offering free tickets. I am new to property investment so I thought that it couldn't hurt for me to see what the deal was.
The seminar basically consisted of:
* Success stories of ordinary people who have done the course and now have many properties
* Warnings about 98% of people not being able to support themselves in retirement
* Asking audience to establish high goals (i.e what would you do if you didn't have to work?) and then asking "Can his be achieved on your current lifestyle?"
* Brief descriptions of strategies such as mezzanine, deposit bonds, buying off the plan etc.

THere was actually very little information on the details of the course (costs, duration etc.). At the end you could register your interest in a free consultation (again it couldn't hurt) to discuss how NII methods can be applied to my situation.

The first half of the consultation involved again setting goals and describing my financial situation and how I couldn't afford to retire. THe consultant then glossed over the NII methods and how I could make money with low risk easily.

It wasn't until the last 15 mins of the consulation that I was told that the course costs were: $695 sign-on + 95$ per week for 4 years (all up approx $15,000) or $13,000 up front. The most alarming thing for me was that they wanted me to pay the sign on fee on that night. I don't know how people can turn up to a consultation and decide on the spot to spend $695. The justification for the fee was that you would make $15,000 with your first property in less than 6 months.

Other things that had me worried were:
*"We only put highly motivated people through the course. Are you willing to extend yourself out of the comfort zone or are you going to let your chance slip. You seem like a motivated person because you have come this far". The people who were at the course were picked off the street. This same thing would have been repeated to all of the other people who attended the consultation.
* The lack of any documentation of the specific details of the course (not the glossy brochure with the single mum on $25,000 who now owns $1 million in property). I did ask but there was nothing available for a $15,000 dollar course.
* He left to go for a drink for 5-10 mins. I thought that it was odd for a drink to take that long when a possible client was waiting and that he was probably getting advise on what to tell me.

I told the consultant that I would think about it after I did a little bit of research. He questioned where I would be able to find this info as most of the people who advise against the course could likely be people who don't own any property. I replied that I could find info on the internet, friends, family etc. (I wish I knew about this forum then). I asked if I could speak to any people who were doing the course and he suggested that I should attend a meeting that they were having on the weekend to speak to participants.

The next day I watched ACA and the HK story so I didn't bother attending the meeting. I am glad that I attended the seminar and consultation as the grim retirement details did give me the will to look into property investment rather than relying on super. I may have missed a great opportunity but listening to other comments on here, I think I made the sensible decision.

 

[Lily House]

Good on you mustapha - thanks for sharing.

Good Luck
Lily

 

[Tibor]

Interesting thread, differing opinions.

I've also done some of the seminar professionals' courses when they were rather affordable. I also read lost of books from the same as well as other people. I have purchased a couple of properties using some of the advice I was given by the books and the people.

After all my opinion is ;

The only seminar where I was not only given some excellent ideas
but real solutions was the $289 (I only paid $149 for it) Steve Navra seminar. He is obviously not in the seminar game.

While I highly respect all the other seminar runners (they have already achieved what I am aspriring to achieve), and they are brilliant in their own ways, they provide a sometimes working, sometimes not working type of solutions which is definitely not suitable to everyone and any time.

Their knowledge could be gained for under $500 from books and magazines as well as frequenting forums like this and talking to other investors.

To me $7,000 is 10% deposit on a cash-flow positive property in Logan, $10,000 will include the closing cost (as well as the $500 for education) as well. Now what will help me better in the long term? Getting 3 days with Mr or Mrs Marvellous or buy a real property?

I guess its just me, but rather buy the property and let others to purchase the seminars.

Tibor

 

[NigelW]

Originally posted by Tibor
Interesting thread, differing opinions.

After all my opinion is ;

The only seminar where I was not only given some excellent ideas
but real solutions was the $289 (I only paid $149 for it) Steve Navra seminar. He is obviously not in the seminar game.


Tibor

Tibor

I certainly agree with you about the Navra course. But to the list of worthwhile seminars I'd have to add Geoff Doidge/Paul Eslick's.

I've done Geoff's general property seminar plus the renovation one. Admittedly I did them a while ago when they were still below the $1k mark (from memory). So at that price they did represent REAL value. Whilst I don't specifically use many of Geoff & Paul's reno techniques, he did open my eyes to the possibility of kick starting the capital gain and cashflow through renovation. And that has been a VERY profitable relevation for me in the years that have followed...

I guess as they say - "the teacher arrives when the student is ready"

I should add though, that I stick by my rule of education spending - you shouldn't spend more than 1%-3% of your net worth on education. Particularly when there's this forum and a whole range of $29.95 books which get you into a guru's head at the local bookstore!!!!

Cheers
N.