Negative Gearing

I fear that would have the spruikers out in force and there would be some stuff getting built in questionable locations just for the tax benefits.

I think you are absolutely right. Recently I tried to explain to someone that it is impossible to get depreciation deductions except in respect of an expense that you *have already incurred* and it was like talking to a brick wall. The fact that the tax man claws half of capital works deductions back (admittedly in the future so you capture all the time value of the deduction after losing the time value of the expense) in the form of CGT also went over their head.

I went through a similar exercise to show that the NPV of NG deductions on a $500k house bought today at current interest rates on 80% LVR was about $10k - i.e. if you pay more than $10k too much for a property to capture NG benefits then you have done yourself a disservice. At 10% interest rates that NPV balloons out to a massive $30k under reasonable assumptions of what CPI would be is interest rates were 10%.

Depreciation, capital works allowances and NG are a big help in terms of cashflow early on, but assuming you can swing an investment from a cashflow perspective, they almost never turn a red light into a green light.

But large cohorts of people on both sides of the NG/anti NG argument can't see this. The result of a move to increase capital works deductions back to, say, the 4% available between 1985 and 1987 would almost certainly be malinvestment in housing.

In general going into a business because of some perceived tax advantage is a mistake. Design you business to make the maximum profit (and hence pay the maximum tax!) but make sure you take advantage of any tax incentives that are offered once you have made your decision.
 
Sigh... where do you start?

I didn't see many outer-lying suburbs and non-auction properties...

LINDA SCOTT: If you go to any auction in Sydney, you'll see first home owners competing against seasoned market investors.
What about the private treaty sales?

What about the homes worth $1.5m+..how many investors would even be at these places?

How many places are less that $500k, and have a rent return of 5% - how many investors can pony-up for that cash drain?

How many are at 6, or 7% or more?

DAVID MARK: The theory is that negative gearing encourages investment in housing, particularly for new properties like these ones. Not only does it create more accommodation for renters, it also creates construction jobs. But the reality is almost all the money claimed through negative gearing is for existing properties, not new ones.
So, if depreciation is so good on new properties, why are folks going for existing so much?

This would suggest that there is less competition for newer projects? - have at it, FHB's.

Oh; that's right - they are too far away from the CBD, or; they are top-end apartments in the CBD, and/or very close to it..

This whole argument is so CBD-centric it's hysterical.

What % of investors are realistically able to fund the neg cashflow associated with inner-suburb properties? Or multiples thereof?

LINDA SCOTT: Given the pressures on the federal budget, I think Australians understand that it's unfair that the taxpayer should be subsidising investors' losses on their mortgages.
Umm; the tax I get back is the tax I have already paid - no other tax payer is subsidising my own tax being given back to me...

If the Gubb is losing revenue from NG each year, then I as a taxpayer am contributing to making up their shortfall of funds like everyone else.

All the tax money I get back gets recycled back into the community in various ways after I receive it - more clothes for kids, maybe a new car, petrol for it, insurances, golf club membership, a holiday, a new bathroom renovation, a new deck, food, restaurants...the list is endless how that money gets re-spent back into the community and how many jobs it funds - from which the Gubb collects a nice GST

The tax return means I have incurred a loss - I am paying money out of my own pocket to hold the property.

Therefore, I am not willingly going to continue to keep paying more for each IP if the cashflow drain will be increased with each purchase...at some point, I have to say; "You know what; I'm tired of having IP's and no cashflow and no life; I'm gunna start low-balling and pay less".

Or; is this just poor cash-strapped me and no-one else?

I wonder if Linda owns an IP?

There was never at any stage the question asked of any of the investors; "Do you consciously pay more for the property because you can; just so you can secure it?"

I'd wager that if it was asked, the answer would be; "No; there are plenty more deals out there every day".

And I'd wager that if that answer was given; it was edited out.
 
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Very one sided, Sydney centric and light on detail IMO but I wouldn't have expected anything else from the ABC. Thanks for letting us know Steven.
 
The central points of the report were spot on, speculators supported by negative gearing are pushing up prices and pushing first home buyers out of the market. Its a policy disaster and has to go but self interested politicians are too weak to do whats best for the country and are more interested in votes and their own property portfolios.
 
Umm; the tax I get back is the tax I have already paid - no other tax payer is subsidising my own tax being given back to me...
I don't agree with much you have to say on this topic, but do agree with your comment here, Linda Scott's comment was just plain wrong (i.e. that taxpayers are subsidising investor losses).

The central points of the report were spot on, speculators supported by negative gearing are pushing up prices and pushing first home buyers out of the market. Its a policy disaster and has to go but self interested politicians are too weak to do whats best for the country and are more interested in votes and their own property portfolios.
This.
 
Just a couple of quick points here. Firstly in boom times there is always someone calling for reductions to negative gearing, but this could be a real problem when property values are flat or negative.
Secondly, there is nothing to stop first home buyers being investors. First home buyers can and do buy invrstment properties first and rent for a while, so are they being counted as first home buyers or investors?
 
My main hope is that the piece might stimulate conversation and encourage a few people to learn a bit more and take control of their (financial) future.

There was a clear agenda and an absence of facts and evidence for either side, just lots of bite-sized opinions, but that's what you come to expect on tv--very surface level.
 
The central points of the report were spot on, speculators supported by negative gearing are pushing up prices and pushing first home buyers out of the market.
When did this all happen?

In the last 3 or 5 years?

Or when you started looking to buy your first property?

Or; maybe way back in 1985 when I bought my first of 12 properties so far (have sold a few too), or maybe 50 years ago, or 75 years ago?
 
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When the media look at a property that is $0.75m and talk about OOs shouldn't they interview an upgrader? It is such a set up to raise the envy of FHBs. It may be instructive to actually find out the age group of the buyer of a property and not on the basis of investor vs FHBs.

I do wish the media will start linking the dots to tenants whenever they mention investors after all investors do not just buy rental properties to compete against OOs. Perhaps, it may be refreshingly different to report on the redeeming value of investor participation. They may even do the public a favour and interview housing researchers about the contribution investors make to state housing.

Yes, as other posters have mentioned Linda Scott showed her ignorance by when she mentioned that the tax payer was subsidising NG investor.
 
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When the media look at a property that is $0.75m and talk about OOs shouldn't they interview an upgrader? It is such a set up to raise the envy of FHBs. It may be instructive to actually find out the age group of the buyer of a property and not on the basis of investor vs FHBs.
Exactly.

The family who is upgrading, and/or the retiree/empty nester who is downsizing never get mentioned.

Here's one; we sold our PPoR no.4 (sold to a Husband and Wife with 2 kids as their PPoR, by the way) and made enough from it to move down to our existing suburb and pay cash for the house. This was mid 2000...Sydney Olympics year.

The PPoR no.5 house we bought was auctioned approx 3 months before we bought it, and was passed in for $310k....

We drove past 3 months later, saw the house hadn't sold, and asked for an inspection....

Fell in love immediately, and made an offer for $305k with a 30 day settlement. Sold.

For us; it was a downsize of sorts - not so much the house standard; the house was a nice reno with really good bayviews and decent back yard and extra garage, but the suburb and land size were different - less of a "postcode suburb" and went from 5 acres to 1/3 acre.

Any FHB (or investor) could have bought it, but didn't.

We sold that same house in 2010 (after our own reno on it) for $850k....to another family who were looking for the seachange.
 
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BayView: you nailed the -ve effects of the -ve gearing. its absolutely great that you made heaps from the house but the guy who buyed it if changes it to IP and claims -ve G then who is at loss? GOVT!!!!
 
I can't help but have no respect for people when they argue rents will rise once neg gearing goes..

Rates are like 20% below normal but rents haven't dropped :D

Shouldn't rents be dropped? trololo
 
I would be interested to know what the real revenue would be created or saved from that $5 Billion?
If we are to anticipate the heavy geared, to sell out, would there be any impact?
Also, no one mentioned that Sydney State Government has recently generated around 50% it's revenues from RE, mainly council rates and stamp duty, followed by the land tax, so what implications, if any would removal of -ve gearing have on these?
I know the figures below are old, but Michael Yardney's commentary is interesting to note:
(ATO) released taxation statistics for the 2012-13 financial year earlier this week.
From a residential housing market perspective the data is interesting because it provides insight into those who own residential investment properties and of course how many of these property owners are negatively geared.

The key statistics from the data release were:
?1,967,260 taxpayers claimed a net rental income (15.4% of all tax payers)
?Of those individuals claiming rental income, 64% declared a net loss (ie were negatively geared) and 36% recorded a net profit (ie were positively geared).figures number statistics data
?The ATO reports that there was $41,986,149,270 in rental deductions over the year however, the value of these rental deductions fell by -3.9% over the year.
?706,950 taxpayers claimed a net rental profit of $6,651,603,089 with the number claiming a profit up 8.3% and the value of the total profit rising 8.2%
?The average of these profits was $9,409 per taxpayer, virtually steady from $9,417 the previous year
?1,260,315 taxpayers claimed a net rental loss amounting to $12,045,667,067 with the number claiming a loss down -4.2% over the year while the value of these losses declined by 16.3%
?The average of these losses was $6,123 per taxpayer, down from $7,316 the previous year and average losses were at their lowest level since 2009-10
?Of the 1,967,260 taxpayers that claimed net rent, they claimed a total of $5,394,063 in losses which was -34.6% lower over the year
?Across the tax brackets, those in the $30,000 to $80,000 tax bracket claimed the greatest proportion of total rental losses (37.6%) followed by: $80,000 to $180,000 (35.6%), Greater than $180,000 (12.8%), less than $18,200 (12.7%) and $18,200 to $30,000 (1.3%)

So what does it all mean?:confused:
 
I can't help but have no respect for people when they argue rents will rise once neg gearing goes..

Rates are like 20% below normal but rents haven't dropped :D

Shouldn't rents be dropped? trololo
This is law in some countries. when rates dropped in Switzerland when I lived there tenants could apply for rent reduction and the owner was usually legally required to oblige.
 
BayView: you nailed the -ve effects of the -ve gearing. its absolutely great that you made heaps from the house but the guy who buyed it if changes it to IP and claims -ve G then who is at loss? GOVT!!!!
Don't forget the Stamp Duty etc from the transactions.

I think it has already been covered by others that the Govt does not lose out with NG.

It might appear that way because I pay say; $10k in tax, but then get back $3k, or whatever it might be.

I guess if I stick that $3k under the mattress and don't ever spend it then yes; would, but who actually does that? Everyone spends it sooner or later....the Gubb then collects GST, and the store I spend it with gets to pay some wages and the Gubb collects the PAYE from that employee/s.

In a way, NG helps the economy to stay active...

The other thing we have to ask ourselves is; if the Gubb are losing money from NG; why are they not howling for it's removal, or why haven't they removed it after it was reintroduced back in the '80's??

They did try it back in the 80's, and it didn't seem to improve things (affordability), so it was reintroduced soon after.

Considering that the percent of the total voting population enjoying it is not that large, it's not exactly going to be a vote loser...if anything; it would be a vote winner - given the current level of public and lefty-media noise about it's perceived evils.

I can't help but have no respect for people when they argue rents will rise once neg gearing goes..

Rates are like 20% below normal but rents haven't dropped

Shouldn't rents be dropped? trololo
They have dropped.

In areas where the demand is now less than the supply.

For eg; I have an IP in Kalgoorlie. 18 months ago the rent was $310pw. Now it is $265pw. This is not a result of the rate drops - it is a result of the mining boom ending...less mining industry related workers in the area, less demand.

If everyone wants to live in the same place, then it wouldn't matter if the rates were zero...the rent would actually go up.

Also; a decent percent of investors start off being NG'd, but after a time become pos geared...paying more tax.
 
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