New Development but no storm water. HELP!

[albanga]

Hey All,

I am currently in the process of developing a dwelling to the rear of my PPOR and have just discovered we have no storm water. My block slopes to the rear with about a fairly decent slope (roughly 5m from curb)

I have spoken with Council who confirmed this and also my neighbor who actually showed me his storm water pipe running into the rear neighbors backyard!!!!!! I was still not 100% convinced though, I mean the land was subdivided around 70 years ago but given all the the sloping blocks surely there should have been storm water installed!

So on the weekend I took to my backyard with a shovel and started to locate where all the pipes were running. After several holes I found myself in the easement where sure enough I found the end of the storm water pipes which were buried around 30cm under the soil and open which meant the water would pretty much run directly into my neighbors backyard! (same neigbor with a big block) The interesting thing though is the soil was not wet? The block is in Melbourne and we have had a fair whack of rain so i would have expected it to be very wet but it wasn't?

I am not sure what to make of that? I put my hand into the pipe and it was compacted with soil but perhaps given the pipe is old ceramic then it would have leaked through the joins throughout.

So anyway I have now been advised I will need a pump system engineered to push the water back up the hill to the only available "authorised" council storm water at the curb. I have not received an actual quote but I have been advised to expect anything from 15-30k!!!

So before I do that I just wanted to throw it out there to see if anyone had any suggestions at all? Has anyone dealt with this? I did read someone had a similar issue and actually elevated the slab so the water could run downhill so no need for a pump. I unfortunately do not have this luxury due to the dwelling being at the rear and the size of the slope.

Thanks in advance

 

[handyandy]

If there is a stormwater pipe with easement why wouldn't you put some effort into clearing/accessing that?

 

[albanga]

Hey handyandy,

Thanks for the quick reply!
I apologise as I am not sure I made myself too clear. What I did was followed where the downpipes from my house rain and then dug up my backyard to locate the pipes (In the hope they would connect to a main storm water pipe in the easement so i could simply hook into that). I did locate the stormwater pipes from my house which are old ceramic and then dug holes every few meters to ensure the storm water pipes from the house continued down into the easement.

This was the case but when I got to the easement there was no MAIN storm water pipe for me to hook into. All that happens is the pipes from the house run into the back corner of the property and just terminate there! So in essence what is happening is the storm water simply comes into the pipes from my house and run into the end of the backyard!

Like I said i would have expected the back of the property where this happens to be a mud pile but this is not the case. I have asked a few builders about this and they said what can happen with ceramic piping is when it cannot go anyone (such as with mine where the pipe is chock full of soil) it leaks through the joins in the pipe.

Does that make more sense?

I guess the short storey is there is no MAIN storm water in the easement for me to connect to.

 

[Macca]

If your rear neighbour has been getting the water all this time, perhaps they will allow you to run a pipe down their place and into the gutter on the next street. You could offer them the use of it to drain their backyard as well.

 

[wylie]

The houses on the opposite side of our street have no storm water main either. When they renovated about ten years ago, they solved the problem by installing big underground tanks (and possibly rubble pits as well) and I know we solved a similar problem in an IP (same suburb) by installing a 1mx1mx1m rubble pit. I believe these are no longer allowed in Brisbane but perhaps you can look into doing one or more rubble pits.

I also like the sound of Macca's suggestion.

 

[bryn]

getting a pipe run through your rear neighbours block to the road with an appropriate easement would be the best solution- but you'll have to pay them for it. I seem to recall another thread on here suggesting about $5k was the going rate for this?

 

[MrB]

getting a pipe run through your rear neighbours block to the road with an appropriate easement would be the best solution- but you'll have to pay them for it. I seem to recall another thread on here suggesting about $5k was the going rate for this?

The going rate is actually what the people behind think they can get from you, or if they want to do it correctly the loss of value to their land by having an easement. Plus their costs and the cost of laying the pipe and restoring the surface.

 

[bryn]

The going rate is actually what the people behind think they can get from you, or if they want to do it correctly the loss of value to their land by having an easement. Plus their costs and the cost of laying the pipe and restoring the surface.

of course- but around the $5k mark seems to be somewhere in the centre of the bell curve of prices.

 

[albanga]

Thanks for all the great suggestions!
I just got off the phone with drainage and had a chat with the gentleman and basically I am stuffed!

Turns out the property behind me is also without storm water so there is no option to connect to him. I am one house from the corner and my rear neighbor is on a street running vertically from mine. The gentleman at council said most houses in that street are also without storm water.

I suggested a rubble pit as per Wylies suggestion but a no goer anymore unfortunately.

The only other option is 187 meters from my property on the same street and same side is a storm water connection point. He said you could POTENTIALLY connect to that but the amount of work required to do this and the cost in which me as the developer would have to fit would probably be equivalent to multiple pumps. I just calculated I would need to convince 13 neighbors to let me dig up there backyards so I can connect them to stormwater .

 

[albanga]

Oh he did also say that even if my rear neighbor did have a storm water connection they would not allow it for the construction of a new dwelling!

He said they would only allow this if an existing property needed to connect to storm water. ummmmm no thanks!

 

[Hodge]

Albanga could you pm me the suburb. I find it hard to believe the entire street has no storm water.

 

[vaughan]

Albanga could you pm me the suburb. I find it hard to believe the entire street has no storm water.

Believe it.

I live in Willoughby (lower north shore, Sydney) and most of it has no storm water. Roofs typically drain to the street. Council insists that retention tanks and pumps be installed for new work and modifications over a certain amount, which add >$10,000 to the cost.

 

[wylie]

So anyway I have now been advised I will need a pump system engineered to push the water back up the hill to the only available "authorised" council storm water at the curb. I have not received an actual quote but I have been advised to expect anything from 15-30k!!!

The only other option is 187 meters from my property on the same street and same side is a storm water connection point. He said you could POTENTIALLY connect to that but the amount of work required to do this and the cost in which me as the developer would have to fit would probably be equivalent to multiple pumps. I just calculated I would need to convince 13 neighbors to let me dig up there backyards so I can connect them to stormwater .

If you are building behind your PPOR, where does your PPOR stormwater go? Does it go to the street, and if so, can you hook into your own storm water and only have to pump it as far as your PPOR, ie. pump it up to your house and then let it join your PPOR storm water to the street?

(Or are you saying your PPOR also has no storm water pipes but that is okay because you are not changing what is there?)

 

[Doovalacky]

wylie

Hey handyandy,
All that happens is the pipes from the house run into the back corner of the property and just terminate there!

Basically like many other places, current house dumps water on ground and lets it soak away.

I would think if there was no storm water connection available, within reasonable distance, they would have to accept soak wells even if you have to put in more to deal with clay soil.

 

[albanga]

Hey All,
Good to see the topic has generated a lot of discussion

Hodge in answer to your question the suburb is Niddrie in Melbourne's North West. The whole suburb is not without storm water, just certain pockets that unfortunately mine has fallen into. A while back if you followed the slope of my land all the way down it eventually would have ran into a quarry which is why maybe when they subdivided the land 70 odd years ago they felt it not necessary to run storm water in the easement? Just probably figured if it flooded it would eventually make itself down to the quarry?

Thing is though that the quarry has since been turned into an upmarket suburb known as valley lakes and the old quarry turned into a feature lake of the suburb!

Like I said in a previous post there is a stormwater connection in my actual street but it is number 37 and I live in 13. In order to connect to this storm water main I would need to run a pipe 187 meters through the easement of 13 other properties. Council advised that I as the developer would need to foot the bill for this unless everyone accepted. Mind you Niddrie is a fairly old neighborhood, just imagine trying to convince 13 elderly neighbors its a good idea to fork out cash so I can dig up there backyard and all they get in return is pretty much nothing as they have lived there for 70 years without it ever being a problem.

 

[albanga]

Hey Wylie,
As Doovalacky mentioned my PPOR simply dumps the water into the ground at the end of my property. Now because this is an existing property then council have no grounds for you to connect to storm water. Basically because it was built that way it can stay that way. Council said there was no building codes back then in regards to storm water.

For all new dwellings however you have to follow the new building codes and that is that all storm water must connect to a council approved termination point. For me this point as per previous posts is either 187 meters away through 13 other properties OR to the curb of the street which is uphill from my property, hence the need for pumps to get it up there.

Doovalacky in regards to your point, I did say to him, surely a pump should be a last resort?? I asked what other people have had to do and said there must be other options and basically he said, a pump is the councils preferred option when no storm water is available. I thought this to be bizarre! Surely a pump is a maintenance disaster waiting to happen!

Like i said Niddrie is a fairly old suburb and the houses predominately on my street are 50s brick so anyone buying them in the future is going to develop on them and likely 2 dwellings. This means in say 30 years time your going to have about 40 houses running 2 pumps each! What happens when we get a freak amount of rain, there is no way every single pump will be able to cope and then what?

I would have thought council would have to take some ownership here and not put the onus for a pipe on the developer. I know I am not going to fork the cost and once I pay for a pump and the next developer comes along and asks me to then why would i then agree to? It will no doubt never get done because no single person is going to want to pay the entire bill them self.

 

[bashworth]

I would have thought council would have to take some ownership here and not put the onus for a pipe on the developer.

So who do you think should pay for the pipe? . . . All the other ratepayers who are happy with their storm water disposal.

If you want to make some money by subdividing it seems only fair that you should pay.

 

[albanga]

So who do you think should pay for the pipe? . . . All the other ratepayers who are happy with their storm water disposal.

If you want to make some money by subdividing it seems only fair that you should pay.

Yeah look i had not thought that far ahead as to who should pay, just not me

No that is a very valid point, its a tough one. I definitely see what you mean, and understand I am the one trying to make a buck so why should others have to pay so i can profit.
Realistically its in the best interests of all the homes in the neighborhood to have storm water but ofcourse no one is going to want to pay for something that hasn't, isn't or may not ever be an issue for them.

 

[robboat]

Plenty of old places with this problem....
Most of my area has no storm water drain to the street....they use a surge pit and soak line (which is often completely clogged!)
I had to dig over 70m of storm pipe to get all the water to the street using a wet charged system....my fall was only 500mm.

At 5m fall your only option is a pump system as the other options are just too expensive, unrealistic or will not be approved.

You need storm water compliance for the development, so you will be paying the bill.

If there is no rock then it should not be too daunting....just do your due diligence and double check your costs of development to make sure it is worth it.
Get a few quotes from licensed drainers with experience in this as well.

Good luck.