Our First Smsf Purchase - A Step By Step Guide

SMSF mortgage

Hi

I've just joined and read the SMSF posts with interest. Thanks for sharing BV.
You mentioned the SMSF is paying off the mortgage.
a.Is this allowed? I have a SMSF and thought they can't borrow. I note they can now have small borrowings like isntalment shares but can't quite understand it yet.
b.If the property is held in a bare trust, who are its beneficiaries? Just the SMSF? what is the ownership structure like?
c. is it shared with you as individual? who is/are the borrowers in the eyes of the lender?
d.Also is the loan a non-recourse loan?
 
You mentioned the SMSF is paying off the mortgage.

No, the loan is interest only


I have a SMSF and thought they can't borrow.
Perhaps your SMSF deed was written before 2007?
You can get it updated through the people you bought it from

If the property is held in a bare trust, who are its beneficiaries?
Just the SMSF? what is the ownership structure like
The SMSF is the beneficiary and myself and my wife are the trustees who will manage the fund till retirement

is it shared with you as individual? who is/are the borrowers in the eyes of the lender?
No sharing as such is allowed, we cannot live in it.
We are the managers of the scheme and there are strict guidelines we have to adhere to.
The borrower is the trustee of the SMSF acting on behalf of the SMSF.
The loan is limited in recourse, meaning that the Bank’s right against the SMSF Trustee is limited to the Bank’s right as mortgagee in relation to the property and this property only.
 
Hi there,
I am thinking of setting up a SMSF and leveraging into a property.

One question for you all - is it possible, if the IP goes up in Value to use the equity that has been created to purchase further IP's witihin the SMSF? I've read / heard that this isn't possible - i.e. one of the limiting factors is the inability to leverage into further properties

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Nick
 
Hi there,
I am thinking of setting up a SMSF and leveraging into a property.

One question for you all - is it possible, if the IP goes up in Value to use the equity that has been created to purchase further IP's witihin the SMSF? I've read / heard that this isn't possible - i.e. one of the limiting factors is the inability to leverage into further properties

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Nick

Correct, you cant use that equity built up, although I do know of one well known accountancy firm that claims thay have a legal way of doing this. I have asked another accountant who used to work for this firm how can they do that, his reply "they sail very close to the edge of the law".
 
Hi there,
I am thinking of setting up a SMSF and leveraging into a property.
One question for you all - is it possible, if the IP goes up in Value to use the equity that has been created to purchase further IP's witihin the SMSF? I've read / heard that this isn't possible - i.e. one of the limiting factors is the inability to leverage into further properties
I'm guessing that it would be hard without having to rewrite the loan docs
but this can be done. At present I don't know of any lender who is offering such an arrangement but I'm sure that over time the situation will change.

If you have lazy money sitting around in your super then go for it but as with any investment, you should do the sums and see if it will work for you.
However, you should see it as another investment vehicle and not as the only vehicle.
The attraction for me is the leveraging and the CG tax free status.
 
So why do you want to use a SMSF to buy property? What advantages do you see in doing so?

For us, it was just having $130K between us doing nothing, while the rest of our money was performing well. We don't put anything into super - our employer contributions are all that go in. But we did want to leverage what was already there. We wouldn't bother if we didn't want to leverage - we'd just be in a low-cost industry plan instead. Sure, the tax breaks are good, but so's negative gearing in the shorter term, and we like flexibility in the longer term.

That's not to say we won't start transferring in once we're getting close to the pension phase in order to get tax-free income, but we will do that late rather than early as a hedge against regulatory change.
 
Hi there,
I am thinking of setting up a SMSF and leveraging into a property.

One question for you all - is it possible, if the IP goes up in Value to use the equity that has been created to purchase further IP's witihin the SMSF? I've read / heard that this isn't possible - i.e. one of the limiting factors is the inability to leverage into further properties

I have recently wondered the same thing. Hypothetically, If I could purchase at an 80% LVR (400k lend on 500k purchase) and this property's value increased to 650K, could I withdraw 120K equity via a line of credit to use as a deposit and purchase costs on another SMSF property investment?

This would appear to meet the sole purpose test etc. I don't know much about installment warrants and bare trusts and was wondering if these docs would create restrictions to using a LOC facility.

I also realise that an offest account might not be an effective investment strategy but are there any limitations to parking temporarily unused SMSF in SMSF offset account?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.
 
If I could purchase at an 80% LVR (400k lend on 500k purchase) and this property's value increased to 650K, could I withdraw 120K equity via a line of credit to use as a deposit and purchase costs on another SMSF property investment?.
Currently the SMSF legislation and the lending packages are restrictive but I'm sure that this will change over time.


I also realise that an offest account might not be an effective investment strategy but are there any limitations to parking temporarily unused SMSF in SMSF offset account?.

I haven't been told that it isn't.
From the compliance point of view the money is indirectly invested (because the SMSF is saving 7% or so).
 
Thanks Bill,

Reading your story, I'd be in pretty much the same situation as you but with a little less super and and a little less lending. I'd also choose the IO option.

I wandered into CBA the other day to see what products they had and their lender offered a SMSF product at an 80% lend, IO option, same rate as residential lend with no extra fees. She did say that it was likely that the loan required a personal guarantee though.

I raised some concerns about the personal guarantee and she said she'd read through the fine print for me to see if it was required.

Except for the personal guarantee, the deal seemed too good to be true, so I'll wait and see what the true final indicative offer is. She said she'd confirm that these rates were correct.

Thanks again mate.
 
Risky Business

I don't know what the current situation is with personal guarantees.

Reading your post I feel that you should discuss your options with a SMSF specialist broker to get an idea of what's available and the going interest rates.

Give Mike Feltscheer a call 0401 992 641 and please come back here and let us know of any good products
 
Thanks for the phone number Bill.

I've been waiting to use the services of one of the forum brokers so I'll offer him my services first.

I'll keep you posted as to the current offers. I'm now thinking of starting the process and having it on hold till the new financial year to minimise yearly maintenance and auditing fees.

Just wondering Bill. With the benefit of hindsight, would you do anything differently?

Cheers
Marc
 
Just wondering Bill. With the benefit of hindsight, would you do anything differently?
Cheers
Marc

Marc

1 small change would have been to lend my own money to the SMSF (for the deposit) and to have used the SMSF's money to develop the site.
I'll now put the development on the backburner and will lend money to my SMSF to buy another IP instead.

Cheers
 
Thanks Bill,

Reading your story, I'd be in pretty much the same situation as you but with a little less super and and a little less lending. I'd also choose the IO option.

I wandered into CBA the other day to see what products they had and their lender offered a SMSF product at an 80% lend, IO option, same rate as residential lend with no extra fees. She did say that it was likely that the loan required a personal guarantee though.

I raised some concerns about the personal guarantee and she said she'd read through the fine print for me to see if it was required.

Except for the personal guarantee, the deal seemed too good to be true, so I'll wait and see what the true final indicative offer is. She said she'd confirm that these rates were correct.

Thanks again mate.

I think you will find that the lender you spoke with has no idea about SMSF.

The CBA SMSF product is anything but a simple residential loan, is very expensive and has many requirements including appointing them as security custodian and having a minimum of $300,000 net assets in the fund.

Details of the CBA "Supergear" product can be found at;

http://www.commbank.com.au/business/pds/SuperGear_flyer_MarchUpdate.pdf
 
Agree. In addition to what BV has said, it may be prudent to leave an initial buffer for interest shortfall if the fund is a bit skinny when you start.

This would be needed to appease the lenders I would imagine and to hedge on unforseen early repairs or large bills such as LL insurance, council rates, etc. You can always pay those on quarterly increments, however, a buffer would certainly not hurt ;)
Properties purchased in a SMSF should rarely, if ever, be running at any kind of a loss so there should never be a shortfall unless the property is untenanted.

There are very simple and logical reasons for this; Unlike loans for investment properties bought in individual or company names, where LVR's up to 95% may be available, and where 100% of earned income plus 80% of rental income is assessed for serviceability, SMSF loans work differently. There are much stricter limitations on loans available for the purchase or residential investment property through your SMSF.

Let me explain;
1. Max LVR for most SMSF loan products is 70% (or 72% for STG)
This means that the SMSF must have a large enough balance to contribute 30% towards the purchase, plus costs, plus the costs of establishing the SMSF, bare trust, etc etc. So if your SMSF wished to purchase a property for 400K it would be required to contribute 120K plus costs plus set up costs. If the balance of your SMSF is less than 140-150K, you can see how this would not be possible. This is one of the reasons why most SMSF experts recommend that the balance of a fund should be at least 150-200K before you consider gearing into residential investment property.

2. Serviceability is much more limited when borrowing through a SMSF. Lenders cannot use your normal income. Only the income of the SMSF can be used, which will generally mean 9% of your gross salary ( unless you have been making additional contributions for more than 2 years continuously- then the bank may use the higher figure) The other income they will accept is the proposed rental income, wich they assess at 80%. So in essence, serviceability is being determined by 9% of your gross salary plus 80% of the rental income. For a couple earning 150K, that equates to $13,500 plus rental income.

Here's what I mean. Let's work with a generic LVR figure of 70% and a couple with a combined income of 150K and with a 150K SMSF balance, to prove the theory.
They wish to purchase an investment property via their SMSF valued at 400K. Can they do it?

Purchase Price 400K
The SMSF would have to contribute 30% - 120K
The SMSF would have to cover costs of approx 4%- $11,000
The SMSF has set Up costs- unknown. Lets say 5K
Total Contribution required by SMSF- 136K
Yes, they have enough funds to complete the deal in their SMSF. But can their SMSF get a loan for the 280K required?

Loan Required- 70% LVR ( or 72% with ST G) 280K @ 7% Interest Only.
I/O Repayments $19,600 per year
Rental Income- $400 p/w- $20,800 per year (bank will assess 80% of this, so $16640)
SMSF Income - 9% salary-$13,500. (bank will assess 100% of this- except St G, who only assess 80% of this!)
Total Income for serviceability is $16640 plus $13,500 (or $10,800 for STG)
Is this enough to service a 280K loan? It may well be, but it does demonstrate that borrow capacity and LVR restrictions mean that for most people with a solid above average income and a 150K plus SMSF balance, properties priced around 350-400K are the ideal target. Anything above that pricepoint probably cant be purchased via the SMSF. You can see that it would be an exception to the rule for any SMSF to be able to purchase expensive properties that run at a significant loss at 70% LVR. Id be very surprised if many SMSF purchased properties were negatively geared.

So, lets talk about NRAS aproved properties and SMSF!!!!!!
NRAS properties add additional TAX FREE income to serviceability ( an extra 9K almost), are new, have depreciation advantages, and are priced at the 350-400K price point. Not sure about anyone else, but I see some fantastic synergies here!!!!
 
I have recently wondered the same thing. Hypothetically, If I could purchase at an 80% LVR (400k lend on 500k purchase) and this property's value increased to 650K, could I withdraw 120K equity via a line of credit to use as a deposit and purchase costs on another SMSF property investment?

This would appear to meet the sole purpose test etc. I don't know much about installment warrants and bare trusts and was wondering if these docs would create restrictions to using a LOC facility.

I also realise that an offest account might not be an effective investment strategy but are there any limitations to parking temporarily unused SMSF in SMSF offset account?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Redraw is NOT allowed. You would have to sell the first property and start the process over again. Keep in mind that if you do so, CGT is only 10%( unless you have reached pension phase, where its 0%), so if you have made a nice Cap Gain, it may still be a very worthwhile exercise.
 
Thanks Bill,

Reading your story, I'd be in pretty much the same situation as you but with a little less super and and a little less lending. I'd also choose the IO option.

I wandered into CBA the other day to see what products they had and their lender offered a SMSF product at an 80% lend, IO option, same rate as residential lend with no extra fees. She did say that it was likely that the loan required a personal guarantee though.

I raised some concerns about the personal guarantee and she said she'd read through the fine print for me to see if it was required.

Except for the personal guarantee, the deal seemed too good to be true, so I'll wait and see what the true final indicative offer is. She said she'd confirm that these rates were correct.

Thanks again mate.
Its absolutely true that the CBA SuperGear loan does offer 80% LVR, but download the PDF from the CBA website and take a very close look at the set up costs, annual fees and the very controlling restrictions CBA places on the structure. CBA definitely requires a Personal Guarantee. Not suggesting its a good or bad loan- but I will say that it hasnt been a very popularly adopted loan in spite of the fact it offers 80% LVR where others offer 70%. You can decide for yourself if theres a good reason for that or not.

The product I would recommend you look more closely at for SMSF borrowing is available from The Rock Building Society. Like all things, best to look into it yourself and form your own opinions.
 
Thanks again MikeF and euro73.

The Commbank lender chased things up for me and confirmed that she had got a few things mixed up. I told her at the time that it sounded too good to be true and that something was off the mark.

I rang Qsuper the other week as I am a QLD government employee and wanted to confirm that I could roll my super into a SMSF.

They told me that my funds were bound as it was a condition of my employment contract and could only transfer my super if I quit/retire. Long story short, my agency's human resource manual doesn't mention the rolling over of super. I re rang Qsuper and they told me that I was restricted because of the Superannuation (State Public Sector) Act 1990. I skimmed through that act and associated trust deed, notice and regs.

I re contacted Qsuper and it looks like s27 of the Superannuation (State Public Sector) Deed 1990 keeps my funds tied up with Qsuper.

I'm dissapointed with that decision and may try the old letter writing approach. I can't see them assisting me though as thousands of QLD government employees are in the same situation as me.

If anyone has knowledge or experience with Qsuper or this legislation then I'm all ears.

Thanks all.
 
67 4A SIS Act

Hi

Thought that this might be of interest to those following the issues around borrowing within a SMSF.

The law was actually changed yesterday in order to confirm a few things.

Here is a summary I received:

Key points are:

The new rules DELETE the entire section 67 4A SIS Act (the section that sanctions limited recourse loans) and replaces it with a new section 67A.

New 67A is essentially in the same terms as section 67 (4A):
- Super funds can borrow to acquire assets
- The security for the borrowing must be limited in recourse to the underlying asset
- The investor can acquire full title to the asset by paying 1 or more installment.
BUT it adds a few new provisions:
- Each installment can only relate to a single asset (or collection of single assets)
- The bill is very detailed that this means each installment can only relate to 1 specific stock (or multiple shares of the same stock)

- The bill clarifies that where the SMSF member is required to give a personal guarantee, that the total amount that can be claimed under the guarantee is limited to the value of the secured asset.

The practical effect of the new bill is that listed and unlisted limited recourse gearing products are, once again, confirmed as being suitable for SMSF. Only single assets or collections of single assets can be housed within individual instalments – to build portfolios, investors will need to invest in multiple instalments.

Critically, the use of personal guarantees will be severely curtailed and in practice this will mean that some traditional SMSF property lenders may exit the market.

New paragraph 67A(1)(d) will ensure that the rights of the lender or
any other person against the RSF trustee are limited to rights relating to
the acquirable asset. No guarantee arrangement can be enforceable
against the RSF trustee other than the rights relating to the acquirable
asset.

Also, the way I see it is that all personal guarantees previously given by SMSF trustees/members to banks (NAB, CBA, Westpac, Bankwest) are now perhaps unenforceable.

Cheers
 
I received an email in the last week (on this persons mailing list) which said that the government has said it is watching closely the level of borrowings within SMSF's and a review of the act allowing borrowing will be looked at in 2012. It was suggested in this newslwtter that anyone considering buying a property within a SMSF should do so within the next 2 years.

Anyone care to comment? Likelyhood of this happening?
 
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