Paying Down Strategy

The majority here would also know that hingsight is wonderful and always 2020 crystal clear also.

I'd also add the majority here also know that foresight is not always the same

New investors could do worse than hearing stpry like crc's s well as the today tonight / aca type of hype which you suggested they do listen to....
 
There has to be many others that are pursuing other interests at present. Just because they are not posting does not mean they are now broke.:rolleyes:

Wylie & Skater

You're so right! I'm still here and happily reaping the benefits of quite a number of RIPs and getting on with life - just thinking it may be time to gear up again. Hope no-one has written me off! :D

cheers
 
Wylie & Skater

You're so right! I'm still here and happily reaping the benefits of quite a number of RIPs and getting on with life - just thinking it may be time to gear up again. Hope no-one has written me off! :D

cheers

Hi itinerantotter,

Would love to hear your story if you don't mind sharing??

Have you concentrated on purchasing RIP's, or do you purchase into other asset classes as well?

Do you pay down loans as you go, or have you let capital growth over time bring down your LVR?

Regards Jason.
 
BUMP

I'm done with RIPs.

I reached my ''critical mass'' of RIPs as of last week and am moving on.

Only further ones I'll get will be PPOR upgrades.

Beyond a certain point this asset class just becomes a pain in the butt!

I don't think the geared up 20+ RIP strategies that some here are aiming for is a particularly effective one.

I'm in for some education from some more experienced investors today. And I'm slowly working out a new investment strategy...........so some questions if I may?

Ok one for JIT,
What is your "critical mass" in RIP's. Can you elaborate on your strategy a bit more. (Or point me to a thread that you have already done this)


My chosen GCA investment strategy is actually more tax effective than a house. This is bought about due to a higher buildings to land ratio component within the purchase price compared to a house.

2nd Q for Rixter

Can you give a quick post on your GCA investment strategy?

Would this strategy to buy units/townhouses with higher building to land ratio only be best if you are in the highest tax bracket or still be effective within a lower bracket? The reason I'm asking is because we are in the position where within about 3 years, my hubbie and maybe myself could possibly double our wage and both be well within the higest tax bracket, we arnt now, but its only a matter of time before he is.

Thanks in advance.
 
2nd Q for Rixter

Can you give a quick post on your GCA investment strategy?

Would this strategy to buy units/townhouses with higher building to land ratio only be best if you are in the highest tax bracket or still be effective within a lower bracket? The reason I'm asking is because we are in the position where within about 3 years, my hubbie and maybe myself could possibly double our wage and both be well within the higest tax bracket, we arnt now, but its only a matter of time before he is.

Bespoke, this is a post that describes my chosen Investment Strategy that involves Villas & Townhouses. Like with any negative gearing benefits, the higher the tax bracket you are in the greater the monetary return. So if you are in the 30cent tax bracket you get 30cent for every dollar you are negatively geared...if you are in the 45cent bracket then you get 45cents back...

In relation to my strategy, the Capital Growth Averaging (CGA) strategy I employ utilises a regular purchasing cycle similar to what Dollar Cost Averaging is to the sharemarket. The major underlying principle to its success is it relies on your "time in" the market, NOT "timing" the market, and never never sell. So in other words it does not matter whether you buy at the top of a boom or at the bottom, just so long as you purchase good quality, well located property in high density areas ( metro area capital cities), at or below fair market value, on a regular basis.

I've basically been purchasing an IP per year. Currently we're into year 9 of this 10 year plan and to date we've built a multi $million property portfolio spread across Australia.

We've been purchasing new or near new property over older style property for several reasons, the main ones being (in no particular order) -

1/ To maximise my Non-Cash deductions
2/ To minimise my maintenance & repair costs
3/ More modern & Attractive to tenants - thereby minimising potential vacancy rates
4/ Ask a higher rent - thereby Maximising yields

Without getting into the "which is better debate, houses or Units??", I preferr to purchase Townhouses & Villas with a 30% or greater land component thereby eliminating multi story units or high rise apartments, for several reasons. The mains ones being (in no particular order) -

1/ lower maintenance & upkeep for the tenant
2/ lower purchase or entry level into a Higher capital growth suburb area
3/ rapidly growing marketplace (starting both now & into the future) wanting these type properties. This is due the largest group of people to ever be born (being the Babyboomers and Empty nesters) starting to come into their retirement years. They will be wanting to downsize for the following main reasons - lifestyle & economic.
4/ greater tax advantages & effectiveness thus maximises cashflow.
5/ able to hold more individual properties spread across your portfolio - thereby minimising area over exposure risks by not holding all your eggs in only a few baskets, so to speak

I look to buy in areas with a historic Cap growth of 7%pa and/or are under gentrification. I look to where the Govt, Commercial, Retail, private sectors are injecting money. This ultimately beautifies the area and people like the looks so move in creating demand.

I have found this works well if you are looking for short to medium term capital growth so as to leverage against and build your portfolio faster.

Getting back to CGA, as the name suggests it averages out the capital growth achieved on individual properties with your portfolio throughout an entire property cycle, taking into account that property doubles in value every 7 - 10 years. Thats 7%pa compounding.

The easiest way to explain what Im meaning by this is to provide a basic example taking into account that all your portfolio cashflow will be serviced via Wages in the acquisition stage, Rental income, the Tax man, an LOC and/or Cashbond structure, and any other forms of income you have available.

For ease of calculation lets say we buy a property for $250k, so in 10 years its now worth $500k. Now lets say we do that each year for the next 7-10 years. Now you can quit the rat race.

So in year 11 ( 10 years since your 1st Ip) you have 250K equity in IP1 you can draw out (up to 80%) Tax free to fund your lifestyle or invest with. In year 12 you do exactly the same but instead of drawing it from IP1 you draw it from IP2. In year 13 you do the same to IP3, in year 14 to IP4, etc etc etc. You systmatically go right through your portfolio year by year until you have redrawn from each property up to year 20.

So what do you do after you get year 20 I hear you say ?? hmmm..well thats where it all falls into a deep hole - You have to go get a JOB - nope only joking!

You simply go back to that first IP you purchased as its been 10 years since you drew upon it first time around and its now doubled in value ($1M) yet again - so you complete the entire cycle once again. Infact chances are you never drew each property up 80% lvr max , so not only have you got entire property cycle of growth to spend you still have what you left in it first time round that compounded big time. Now you wealth is compounding faster than you can spend it! What a problem to have

Getting back to what I said in my opening paragraph about it does not matter where you buy within a property cycle just so long as you do buy, This is because you will not be wanting to draw upon it until 10 years later after its achieved a complete cycle of growth.

Well that’s the Basic Big Picture of CGA. Once set up & structured correctly it’s a self perpetuating source of tax free income indexed for life!

If you require any clarifications just ask.
 
Wow, thanks for that Rixter, much appreciated.

I do have a question.

When you go to draw down on IP 1 (or any other for that matter) could you theoretically, funnel the rent into your account for living expenses and let the remainding mortgage be taken out of the LOC, thereby maximising (and increasing) the deductible debt, and minimising the amount of non deductible debt on that LOC?

Do you pay down as much of the loan as possible with a PI loan and put into it all the tax refunds from the depreciation etc, or do you keep the laons as IO and use the tax refund for your own purposes?

Do you have a strategy to deal with bank lending policy changes and a long term property slump, or I should say the possibility of?, Or do see this as so small a risk as not to consider it?

Thanks
 
Looks great....

So, in yr 11 you must have #1 paid off then...?

How servicing the drawdowns...? rent covers all debt...as no other income being 'retired'....?

So in your yr 9 now...are your IP's +ve...?

many Q's....
 
Wow, thanks for that Rixter, much appreciated.

I do have a question.

When you go to draw down on IP 1 (or any other for that matter) could you theoretically, funnel the rent into your account for living expenses and let the remainding mortgage be taken out of the LOC, thereby maximising (and increasing) the deductible debt, and minimising the amount of non deductible debt on that LOC?

You can do that but also remember you are not paying any payg tax in the first instance, so have nothing to claim back.

you pay down as much of the loan as possible with a PI loan and put into it all the tax refunds from the depreciation etc, or do you keep the laons as IO and use the tax refund for your own purposes?

All my loans are IO (to maximise my cashflow and use to cover holding costs on additional IP's) and I channel all taxes back into my investment LOC's.

you have a strategy to deal with bank lending policy changes and a long term property slump, or I should say the possibility of?, Or do see this as so small a risk as not to consider it?

Always have a property cycle (7-10 years) of equity already available for access in your LOC's. Also use a Cashbonds strategy as backup should I need to increase DSR.

I hope this helps.
 
Looks great....

So, in yr 11 you must have #1 paid off then...?

No, IO loans so no principle gets paid down.

servicing the drawdowns...? rent covers all debt...as no other income being 'retired'....?

So in your yr 9 now...are your IP's +ve...?

many Q's....

My IPs bascially become neutral/positive geared anywhere from 3-5 years from purchase.

All my earlier purchases are +ve and offsett my latter purchases. Overall portfolio becomes neutral/positive cashflow. So now controls a multi $million portfolio. :)

I hope this helps.
 
could one apply this strategy to only 5 ips, and draw down every 2 yrs

As long as your asset base is appreciating faster than you are drawing from it then your LVR will be reducing and your financial position and net wealth will be increasing.
 
Of course, you'd just have half the return.

Look at strategies based on their merits, but use your own numbers based on your own SANF, salary, etc.
 
Thanks Rick,

So for servicing...your lenders take 100% rents as income or 80%...?

Are your lenders tightening up at all considering the credit squeeze is on...?
 
Of course, you'd just have half the return.

Look at strategies based on their merits, but use your own numbers based on your own SANF, salary, etc.

What about drawing down from ip#1 to pay down ip#2 and so on. maybe that way you could minimize high leveraging and the yeild would be snow balling ?:confused:
 
What about drawing down from ip#1 to pay down ip#2 and so on. maybe that way you could minimize high leveraging and the yeild would be snow balling ?:confused:

I don't really understand what you're asking.

Heres what I think you're asking:
Property 1: value = 500k loan = 250k
Property 2: value = 500k loan = 250k
If you drew Property 1 out to 80% LVR to pay down Property 2, you'd have:
Property 1: value = 500k loan = 400k
Property 2: value = 500k loan = 100k (paid 150k from property 1).

In both situations you have 500k total debt against 1mil worth of properties, so achieved nothing. Or it's possible I misunderstood you entirely, and if so, I'm sorry.
 
So for servicing...your lenders take 100% rents as income or 80%...?

Are your lenders tightening up at all considering the credit squeeze is on...?

Different lenders have different lending modules. Some take into account anywhere from 80% up to 100%. Lending has certainly tightened since pre GFC days but while the banks/non bank lenders are in the loans business, there will always be funds to be had. We are currently working towards settling on 2 more loans plus another preapproval in principal to go IP shopping again.
 
Last edited:
You can do that but also remember you are not paying any payg tax in the first instance, so have nothing to claim back.



All my loans are IO (to maximise my cashflow and use to cover holding costs on additional IP's) and I channel all taxes back into my investment LOC's.



Always have a property cycle (7-10 years) of equity already available for access in your LOC's. Also use a Cashbonds strategy as backup should I need to increase DSR.

I hope this helps.

Rixter, how would any left over rent after expenses be treated by the ATO please ? I would have thoguht you woudl have to pay tax therefore woudl ahve so called deductable expenses ?
 
Rixter, how would any left over rent after expenses be treated by the ATO please ? I would have thoguht you woudl have to pay tax therefore woudl ahve so called deductable expenses ?

If you left yourself in a taxable income position then yes of course you would have to pay tax..but why would one would want to pay tax is beyond me - simply buy another IP. :eek:

Damn shame that, having to buy more investments and therefore increase ones net wealth even further just in order to minimise ones taxes. ;)
 
If you left yourself in a taxable income position then yes of course you would have to pay tax..but why would one would want to pay tax is beyond me - simply buy another IP. :eek:

Damn shame that, having to buy more investments and therefore increase ones net wealth even further just in order to minimise ones taxes. ;)

Rixter .....

1) How do you go with the banks with refinancing to access equity seen as the banks are very risk adverse these day's?

2) Your strategy was what we had in mind when we started back in property investing, but the banks seem to changing the rules. How are you getting around this? Have you had to change your plan?

Our strategy:

We are in the process of altering our initial plan by reducing our total IP's at present to bring our LVR level back to approx 50% with a cash buffer in place. We have sold two already and only need to sell a third one to achieve this.

We won't be buying more IP's unless its for development or reno and flip. We are focusing more on increasing equity through developing our remaining properties.

Our plan is to increase value/equity without increasing our LVR (where possible)..... for example we have a dual occupancy property in SE Qld .... At present it has a rent return of only 6% ......

When we finish the new build (loan application in with the lender for 4,2,2 house), and also keep the existing house (small reno) as well .... it will give us over 8% rent yield before depreciation and approx $200,000+ in equity, so in effect making the project cash flow neutral/positive from day one with improved equity levels as well.

So in this instance we are increasing the number of IP's in our portfolio and also improving our total portfolio value and our equity levels without affecting the LVR level that we are comfortable with.

I have done rough feasibility numbers on our other development properties that we hold and our targets should be able to be achieved with them as well. Some will be build and hold, some will be build and sell some to pay down others, but all projects have the opportunity to improve our position without affecting our LVR.

Well, .. that's the plan, now I just have to make it work..... :rolleyes:
 
Rixter .....

1) How do you go with the banks with refinancing to access equity seen as the banks are very risk adverse these day's?

I go to my MB and my MB tells me which lenders & product options I have available. Like I said, we just refinanced 2 more full doc loans waiting to go to settlement, and Im also getting an approval in principle to go IP shopping again now.

2) Your strategy was what we had in mind when we started back in property investing, but the banks seem to changing the rules. How are you getting around this? Have you had to change your plan?

Give the banks what they want to see so they can tick the little boxes and fit the little round pegs into the little round holes on their lending modules. ... No plan changes here.

Yours sounds a plan. As you are can see, there is no right or wrong ways. Just different ways based upon one's finances, knowledge, goals, time frames and personal risk profiles.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top