Please don't play with Electricity

My dad is a former electrician (he changed career about 20 years ago so no longer holds a license). Over the last five years we have got him to complete various wiring jobs (eg. downlights, powerpoints etc.) at our house. I am not worried about the quality of the work but it was still completed by an unlicensed person and according to this thread it will void insurance claims.

We are now looking at selling the house. If a buyer requests a building inspection can they request evidence that elcetrical work was completed by a licensed person? Is it possible to have existing work inspected by a licensed electrican and how much would that cost? As an electrican wouldn't you be holding yourself responsible for work that is not yours and isn't that too much of a risk?
 
I think this only applies to people selling their services as a tiler etc. There is no regulation about doing the work for yourself.

A person can build their own house entirely except for plumbing, electrical and comms because they are highly regulated and licenced. The main reason is they connect to a public network which cant be compromised so only licenced people are allowed to work on the network. (regardless is they're selling their services or not) Maybe its different in QLD.


In QLD, you need a licence to perform or supervise any works where labour and materials comes to more than $3,300 value. The "value" part is really significant; even if you do the work yourself, and got the materials free, if the market rate for retail purchase and laying of the tiles would be $3,300 or more, you need a licence.

See "When is a Licence Required?" on the QBSA website.
 
Perp, thanks for the link. Did they just change it to $3,300 recently? I thought it was $6,500 not too long ago? Seems like they're trying to stamp out all DIY'ers.

Also, do you know how they define where one project finishes and one starts? I know this has been discussed before, but i've forgotten

Evand, that's an interesting point, but it says on the BSA website.

Carrying out or undertaking to carry out building work includes:
Directly or indirectly causing building work to be carried out
.... and
Contracting for work as a subcontractor to a builder
 
I think this only applies to people selling their services as a tiler etc. There is no regulation about doing the work for yourself.
Not true in QLD.
evand said:
A person can build their own house entirely except for plumbing, electrical and comms because they are highly regulated and licenced. The main reason is they connect to a public network which cant be compromised so only licenced people are allowed to work on the network. (regardless is they're selling their services or not) Maybe its different in QLD.
It is. :)
Perp, thanks for the link. Did they just change it to $3,300 recently? I thought it was $6,500 not too long ago? Seems like they're trying to stamp out all DIY'ers.
I think the $6,500 was for a project, rather than a particular trade, and that's now $11,000. I think the $3,300 was even lower before.
vbplease said:
Also, do you know how they define where one project finishes and one starts?
It isn't always black and white. But if you get an electrician to do set out, then back to put on power plugs after plastering etc, then everything in-between would certainly count as one project.
 
Thats crazy. How could they ever police that. If i want to install tiles in my own home at any value, i'll do it. Im not a bad tiler btw.

And for sparkies the initial wiring install is called the 'rough in' and coming back after gyprock to install lights, GPOs and switches etc is called the 'fit off' or sometimes 'fit out'. The same terminology applies to plumbers.

Not true in QLD.

It is. :)

I think the $6,500 was for a project, rather than a particular trade, and that's now $11,000. I think the $3,300 was even lower before.

It isn't always black and white. But if you get an electrician to do set out, then back to put on power plugs after plastering etc, then everything in-between would certainly count as one project.
 
And for sparkies the initial wiring install is called the 'rough in' and coming back after gyprock to install lights, GPOs and switches etc is called the 'fit off' or sometimes 'fit out'. The same terminology applies to plumbers.
Thank you. Sorry, I'm about to go to bed (I'm working on US time), and I'm trying to keep US and Aussie rehab/reno terminology straight, and I've mixed the two together and probably made up some of my own. :D At least you figured out what I meant. ;)
 
In SA its only plumbing and electrical you *need* licensed tradies for.

I have a house with a HIA order and have to supply CoC's for the work, and I am having a hell of a time trying to get the CoC from the plumber for the work he did 2 years ago. Without his CoC I currently can't rent the house for more than $60pw, with it it is more like $200, so I'm getting really antsy as him not supplying that CoC could cost me a small fortune.
 
Railglider,

OK, I agree with the sentiment completely and understand the very valid point you're making, but do you seriously consider the installation of a dimmer switch as something warranting the callout of a sparky? These are a dodder to install, just buy a gang with another space in it to replace the one you've got on the current switch and wire in the dimmer then pop the switch and the dimmer back in the new gang and screw it back to the wall. They're a light switch so about the easiest thing possible to ensure you've thrown the correct circuit isolation switch on the mains board. So, with no 240V whilst installing it you're risk free. In modern houses, even if you stuffed it up (which I find hard to believe) you've still got an earth circuit breaker wired into the circuit.

For $50 a dimmer, I think I'd buy mine from Laurence and Hanson and do it myself. I do a lot more than dimmers before I'd argue its sparky work. Seriously, how hard is it to terminate a power point? If its an existing circuit then all the tricky stuff has been taken care of by the sparky so drilling a hole 40cm up from the floor and adding another powerpoint is also no brainer easy work.

And if its low voltage stuff then I do it too. We have low volt downlights that keep burning out the connector that hangs out of the transformers. They short out the ceramic disk. So, I buy a wadload from Laurence and Hanson and replace them as required. Again, just a five minute job with a small flat head screwdriver and all on the low volt side of things. Turn it off, unscrew it, replace it, pop it back in the roof and turn it on again. Couldn't count the number of these buggers I've had to replace.

I'm not saying its for everyone, but call out fees, hourly rates and 100% cost markups on materials make for an expensive process to do something that's a 5 minute job with a stanley knife and a screwdriver...

My brother and father are both sparkies so although I'm not qualified, I've been around those that are long enough to have been taught by them how to do things safely. To be honest, they're more gungho than I am. My Dad has had his number of bights over the years. Recently doing a switch in my place in Narrabeen he had me working on it and I got a small bight from it. I said "Hey, that's live" to which he said "yeah, but we're 20m up in rubber soled shoes on a wooden floor on a wooden pole house, it would only be a little kick"... Needless to say I was still unimpressed he hadn't isolated the whole circuit.

I leave the tricky stuff entirely to them but dimmer switches and adding the odd new powerpoint is not tricky. If its a whole new circuit then I get my dad to come do it for me. To be honest, when I do it I think I'm doing it MUCH more carefully than my Dad would do it anyway.

This is not advice though. If in doubt call in the pros.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Yes Michael, I hear what you are saying and I often hear the same thing from many people.

Fact is - I don't make the rules regarding who should or shouldn't do Electrical work.
If one isn't Licensed, then one is doing the work illegally. Secondly it puts those involved and potentially others at risk of electric shock or electrocution. It voids all insurance claims if found the work was done by someone unlicensed if something goes wrong.

That is the truth of the matter, argue all you like with Workcover or Dept of Fair Trading.

There are some serious cases out there, where homes are not protected by RCD and MCB Circuit protection, I know exactly what is out there, Mate - I've seen it all, and let me tell you, most homes still using ceramic fuse bases, with the old meters still in wooden control cabinets are a time bomb ticking. Anyone still in a home like this should get the wiring inspected and circuit board up-graded as soon as possible.

Homes as I've just described, have usually had extra GPO's and Lighting added to the circuit without any thought to loads on that circuit, no calculations of impedence would have been made, Earth impedence is usually always ignored. Soldered earth connections from newly installed circuits are often not soldered just twisted and taped.

Let me ask you this Michael. Do you know on your own home, how much current you are pulling on any of your Powered GPO circuits (assuming it is a standard 10 amp circuit) if something is plugged into each of them and the item is switched on and running? Lets just forget about the wattage of any of those items at the moment. Let me at a guess - say your circuit would be 10 - 20 % be overloaded, and would have tripped the breaker, maybe long before you would have time to plug into all the GPO's on the circuit. (It's a good test to do.) That is fine, the CB did it's job. It protects (not) the appliance, but the cable the circuit is run in. If people do not think about the loads of extra GPO's and just add them anywhere they please, they are at risk of something. Everytime the cable is heated to it's current protected limit, it deteriorates it's insulation capability, until it cannot tolerate anymore and fuses or starts to burn the timber it is laid on.

Proper testing of circuits with clamp meters and RCD testing along with Megger Ohm testing of circuits is not something the DIY would know about, or would even want to know about. All he wants is extra powerpoints next to his Television for all the fancy Home entertainment equipment he just went out and bought.

Electricians usually do make good money, and that is quite ok in my mind, so do Solicitors, Property Developers, Stokebrokers and a host of other professions. Don't knock people making a good living, just because you think you can save a few dollars doing something you know you can do (no matter how small a job) If it's Electrical and you do this yourself and are not Licensed to do it. Then it is done illegally.
Go and enrol at Tafe and do a short coarse Connect/Disconnect License if you are handy or inclined to work on the stuff. It will open your eyes to many things you would not have considered, and it will keep things legal. But it won't allow you to run new installations, just work on existing stuff.

It takes only one nosey neighbour to see you messing around in the Electrical box, and one phone call from him/her, and you then have a fine of up to 25k coming your way.
Don't think it doesn't or hasn't happened, because it does and many DIYers in the past lay testiment to that.
 
MichaelW, with respect, you may have seen what others have done while putting in a power point, but what you probably haven't seen is all the considerations that went through their minds when deciding whether it was OK to put a power point in that position and on that circuit.

It's like the "knowing where to tap" story. A giant ship's engine fails and all efforts to repair it come to nought. The ship's owners are losing heaps of money. They call in a renowned shipping engineer who spends a few minutes having a look, then pulls out a hammer and gives a junction a delicate tap, and the whole ship instantly comes back to life. Job sorted. The ship's owners get a bill for $10,000, and query it: "You were here less than 30 minutes! We could have tapped it ourselves!"

He responded with an itemised invoice:

Tapping the engine: $1
Knowing where to tap: $9,999
 
Rail, dont you mean 20 amp circuit? Its a 10 amp GPO but a 20 amp circuit.

Micheal, mate, you're a bit smarter then most and yes it is easy to do. But so what, so is changing my brake pads, fixing a leaking pipe, man, i could probably learn to do brain surgery in a few days. But i dont.

As for your dad, sorry mate, any sparkie that works live when its not needed is a a bit crazy. Why?

Couple of things. Lighting circuits dont have earth protection.

And your terminology is all wrong. Its funny when people talk about things from another industry and while trying to show they know whats going on the giveaway is that they always get the jargon wrong. The terminology.
 
Rail, dont you mean 20 amp circuit? Its a 10 amp GPO but a 20 amp circuit


Yes my mistake, I actually have 3 x 16amp power circuits, and 2 x 10 amp light circuits in my home. Spa pool and Air conditioning units all have their own individual breakers.

I totally agree about working on live equipment, best to shut down if you can.
Sometimes it can't be done, I worked for Woolworths distribution centre a couple of years ago - and had to wire in a Air compressor into a live Buss, the board couldn't be shut down because of all the computer and other IT equipment that would have bought the place to a standstill and take four hours to boot back up. 3 Phase 415vac working live is scary stuff, and it's not something I like doing at all.
 
So can you have unlicensed work examined by a professional to verify that everything is OK or will an electrician only certify work that they have completed themself?
 
Yes my mistake, I actually have 3 x 16amp power circuits, and 2 x 10 amp light circuits in my home. Spa pool and Air conditioning units all have their own individual breakers.

I totally agree about working on live equipment, best to shut down if you can.
Sometimes it can't be done, I worked for Woolworths distribution centre a couple of years ago - and had to wire in a Air compressor into a live Buss, the board couldn't be shut down because of all the computer and other IT equipment that would have bought the place to a standstill and take four hours to boot back up. 3 Phase 415vac working live is scary stuff, and it's not something I like doing at all.

Many years ago I had a similar issue and carried out the work live, shorted between two phases in the switchboard and took out the two main fuses in the main switchboard resulting in loss of power to several floors.

Given the impact and the very real possibility of a loss of life it would have been better to have taken the time for a planned shutdown instead they were left with bedlam and a temporarily blind sparky.

If a system is critical and supply must be maintained then the electrical infrastructure should be designed to allow for work arounds via multiple supply paths. If these measures are not put in place then clearly the equipment is not as important as management implies and therefore should be shutdown prior to any works being undertaken.

We all deserve to go home at the end of the day.

Regards

Andrew
 
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....BUT....you'd have to agree that unhitching cost and risk, you've just created an economic situation which is infinite, and that's unrealistic and unsustainable.

In a capitalist society, one can never "forget about cost", otherwise you end up in the surreal marketplace such as { wedding dresses, open heart surgery, safety harnesses within parachutes and epipens } where the deliverable cost of such items and services is totally detached from reality.....and the retail cost of those things is totally disproportionate to what it otherwise would be if the providers didn't think they could get away with lumping massive profit margins in there that they just know their captive consumer will just cough for.

It's a service providers wet dream to be in a position to say to all clients - what price your health, what price your life......but actuaries need to answer those questions every day.

What price health and happiness ?? It ain't "infinite". That's just new age wannabes being hyper-philosophical.

I totally agree. I remember my english teacher saying that it doesn't matter what a doctor charges because we all value our health. I argued that in that case farmers should be making more than doctors because people need to eat. In the end it comes down to supply and demand. I have heard that the medical industry decide how many university places there are, restricting the supply of doctors. Tradies unions campaign for tougher regulations. Car makers convince our pollies that we all need traction controll and ESC in our cars, so they now cost more to service. So we are all forced to live in a world where we hand out money all the time and because of all the safety regulations we can't even kill ourselves to get out.
 
There's a big difference between installing a new ppt on an existing circuit and replacing a light switch / bayonet point etc. The stuff is colour coded FFS.

Anyone re-wiring their house because they "saw the sparky do it" is just a candidate for the Darwin awards.
 
There's a big difference between installing a new ppt on an existing circuit and replacing a light switch / bayonet point etc. The stuff is colour coded FFS.

Anyone re-wiring their house because they "saw the sparky do it" is just a candidate for the Darwin awards.

It's funny how many Darwin awards *are* the result of DIY electrics.
 
Ive had work done by a few different qualified sparkies which could have been done better by a 15 year old school kid. I never called them again ofcoarse, but its sad to know they are out there wiring peoples houses. Their licence did not make my house safe at all.

I think this one bloke was trying to perform the worlds quickest power point install. And when he left I simply touched the power point and it fell out of the wall with all wires exposed...fantastic job mate :eek:. Gave him a mouthfull.

A licence doesnt guarantee your house is safe from fire & the like at all. It just makes it legal. People should not touch electrical work unless they know completely what they are doing, qualified or not, and if they find a good electrician, use them and them only.
 
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