Property Investor Trust - The Facts

Greg
I'd recommend both NickM and Dale as well- both well respected accountants who know their stuff. I suppose if you really want a Sydney based one who you can drop in (with an appt of course :) ), then go for Nick.
They really know trust structures well and are both active property investors themselves (so have a vested interest in knowing all the benefits!!)
 
Thank you all for the advice
Looks like I'll be talking to Nick soon as i would feel more comfortable with as Jacque says "someone I can drop in on" with an appt of course :D

Greg
 
Hi All

An update on P I T from Chan & Naylor Site

"Attention NSW Property Investors

Recent changes concerning the taxing of Trusts in NSW.

This information is pertinent to anyone who has purchased a property in NSW last year using a Unit Trust or Property Trust (not the Property Investor™ Trust Deed which is different).

The NSW Office of State Revenue (OSR) has issued a statement last week that they now intend to treat unit trusts or Property Trust as a 'special trust'. The result of this action means that those investors will no longer be entitled to the Land Tax threshold of $352,000.

The sudden change in OSR's treatment of unit and property trusts is based on a Victorian High Court ruling that was determined on the 28th September 2005. NSW OSR have decide to follow the result of the case where it was determined that a unit holder has a right to the asset but does not own the land.

This rule doesn't affect the treatment of trust in other States but, due to the 'special trust' ruling here in NSW the OSR have now used it as a reason to include unit trust and Property Trust in that same category.

Furthermore, and to our disagreement, the OSR has made this retrospective and have determined that this change will become effective in 2006 which means that investors who own property via a unit trust or property trust between 1st January 2005 to 31st December 2005 and beyond will now lose the land tax threshold and have to pay 1.7% of the land value. This is incredibly unfair on investors who believed unit trusts and Property Trusts were entitled to the threshold which has been the practice for over 50 years and who may have, during 1st January 2005 and the date of the announcement in February 2006, set up a Unit or Property Trust on this assumption. Yet these people will now be penalized without warning based, not on NSW law, but on Victorian law. This retrospective tactic is nothing more than an attempt to grab some more money from NSW Property Investors who already pay more than their fair share towards the Government.

With this in mind Chan & Naylor plan to request 12 months grace for the implementation of this change which is common practise for such broad sweeping alterations in the law. We intend to request that the change be made effective as at December 2006. You can assist with our lobbying effort by registering your name - click here.

For those who have and will continue to invest in NSW property you may be wondering whether the efforts to use a Unit Trust or Property Trust are worthwhile. If you are unsure as to what type of structure you have then contact your client manager.

To help clarify the overall big picture effects, let's explain the benefits of initially using a trust in NSW.

1. Asset Protection.
2. Estate Planning (allows you to pass on property to your children with no CGT and stamp duty and protects them from their divorce).
3. Allows the negative gearing to be claimed by the individual.
4. Allows the Capital Gain to be distributed to the lower taxpayer.
5. Allows you to minimize your tax position as the property changes from negative to positive gearing or vice versa and or if your circumstance changes (i.e. wife goes back to work or decides to stop working, without triggering CGT and stamp duty).
6. It is the only Trust specifically setup for property where all other Trusts were not setup specifically for property and each one has some shortcomings when adapted to property.
7. Allows anonymity with your assets held by a corporation as trustee.
8. Provides a land tax threshold.

All of the above still apply however point 8 above is now modified to

8. Provides a land tax threshold (except in NSW and VIC)

Therefore there are still 7 benefits for using a structure in NSW. The added cost of Land Tax needs to be weighed against the other remaining 7 benefits. Also if, as an investor, you plan to invest in other States, you will still get the threshold in those States because NSW is the only State with a 'Special Trust' provision and VIC is treated differently.

The other point to consider here is that once an individual has used up their threshold (ie they own property in their own name with a land value over $352,000) then they would be paying the land tax anyway. So for those of you who have been using a Unit or Property Trust structure for the past 15 years have benefited greatly until now. However if you already own one or more properties you will now pay the normal land tax that you would have paid if the properties were held in your own name. So the holiday is over but you would have benefited over the prior years.

Unfortunately such changes in the law and interpretation of particular legislation can affect many people. The right attitude to have is to realise this is part of the game. We cannot predict what changes will happen next but we can provide the most current up-to-date information to guide you through this constant and ever changing maze. "
 
Chan & Naylor Response

Hello All,

I believe it is necessary to clarify things once and for all. Rumour, regardless of source, when spread and repeated often enough tends to be believed as fact. In the interests of Chan & Naylor and our thousands of clients, I’m writing to you all so that the truth is known and the rumours cease.

1. Use of Chris’ Testimonial: Chan & Naylor had been using the testimonial for over 9 years; we first started using it previously when we did a lot of business with Chris who was providing our clients with his Employer’s Benefit Trust and other trust products back in the 90’s. The testimonial came from a comment Chris made to a new client he had referered to us; the client is still with us today. Ed and Dave asked Chris if they could use the testimonial during one of their many meetings at the time, to which he agreed. This was of course a long time ago and understandably Chris may have forgotten.

Last year, when Chris first asked us to remove the testimonial from our brochure, we did so immediately and had new brochures printed. This was at a time when Chris was venturing into a new business activity providing education to accountants, to which he rightly believed made the testimonial a conflict of interest. However, it appears that during our recent move, to our new Head Office, a bundle of old brochures was uncovered and used by one of the 40 staff we have here. These have all since being thrown out. We have apologised to Chris about this recent error, it was not an intentional marketing ploy but an honest mistake.

2. Regarding the PIT: It was written by Kevin Munro & Associates – it is a modification of his HDT. We have included additional clauses that provide extra benefits to Property Investors. In NSW the structure included a Unit Trust but we referred to wholly as a PIT for simplicity and for no other reason than that. For those of you who did not see Greg Vale’s response to Chris Batten’s comments about their Trust Deed here is a link to what he said (Greg Vale is a Partner at Kevin Munro & Associates) click here

We have had many requests from accountants wanting the deed. Initially we obliged but later discovered that they did the tax returns wrong. We fixed it for the clients at no charge. However, it became apparent that if we were to allow other accountants to use the deed we needed to train them first. Due to our increasing client demand we are unable to provide this service to accountants; although I am investigating the possibility of licensing the rights to the deed outside of Chan & Naylor.

3. Our Intentions: Our intentions are nothing more than to provide our 4000 clients with up to date information, education and good service. We had no idea that labelling our customised deed with a different name would cause such interest. We also had no intention of alienating other professionals. We have another business called Eknowhow Accounting which provides systems and mentoring for over 500 accountants all around Australia, New Zealand & Canada – so it would not be wise for us to upset our fellow professionals and customers. This is further proof that there was no malice aforethought in developing this deed and controlling its use.

4. Let’s move On: We agree with Chris that what’s more important is moving forward and being constructive with our time. We can make changes by working together in a way that could prevent certain legislation from adversely affecting our property returns. One thing that you are all aware of is the recent change in the treatment of Unit Trusts here in NSW. The method of implementing this change is very unusual. Firstly, NSW OSR, without warning, released their statement in February, making the effect retrospective. With this in mind Chan & Naylor plan to lobby the NSW Government and request, amongst other things, 12 months grace for the implementation of this change which is common practise for such broad sweeping alterations in the law or its implementation. We intend to request that the change be made effective as at December 2006 or allow the Trustee to nominate a beneficiary as having an equitable interest in land. This was done in Victoria. You can assist with our lobbying effort by registering your name - > to register > to read more.

This petition closes 10th March 2006. Therefore please inform other investors who you know may be affected by this change.

Please Note: The information collected will only be used for lobbying purposes mentioned above. Chan & Naylor will NOT use this information as a means to promote or market their services or products.

Lastly, I will be honest and say that due to an already overloaded scheduled it is not possible for me to become a contributing member - we wish to set up an office interstate and are busting at the seams here in NSW - I hope you understand. Besides, a quick review of this thread is evidenced enough that Dale, Chris and Nick are all capable of answering your questions regarding structuring and tax. As a side comment, it’s great to see such discussions taking place as this information should be more broadly known.

In light of what I said at the outset, I am concerned about misleading, damaging and false statements made about Chan & Naylor, its directors, our services and products (eg the PIT). Therefore, if you have any questions or want clarification regarding any of the issues raised, including the PIT, please feel free to email me directly on [email protected]

Happy investing

Regards

Tony Melvin
Managing Director - Chan & Naylor Australia
 
Testamentary Trusts

Finally I have attached a zip file of property and deceased estates. I have another paper on the same subject to add but before I do could someone download and unzip the one I have attached and let me know if the full document was zipped correctly.

Regarding Tony Melvins post all I have to say is that I didn't authorise Chan & Naylor to use my name in the fashion that they did. I can't recall ever saying they could use a testimonial. I have advised accountants for over 10 years and I would never allow an accounting firm or any other firm to say what was said.

Regarding the PIT and associated comments it was Ed and Tony in their marketing material which said when commenting generally about every other trust deed in the country that "These trusts have standard deeds that were not written specifically for property and what accountants and solicitors have done is to try and adapt it to property." How do you know that?

Finally I don't know and have never met Tony Melvin, I never went to an Ed Burton seminar, however I would suggest that Tony does not know what every other accountant and lawyer in the country is doing. And Chan & Naylor didn't want to release the deed to other accountants as they would get the tax return wrong. Is he suggesting NickM, DaleGG and CoastyMike would not be capable of doing the return but an Ed Burton deciple would? Give me a break.

Finally Tony, provide me with a list of those accountants who purchased the deed and got the tax return wrong. You can do this privately if you are concerned about defaming them. Just send it to my office. I would like to see if you are telling the truth or are these just more unsubstantiated stories you are telling. As you would know sometimes Ed Burton had a habbit of telling unsubstantiated stories as well.

For those with any commonsense ignore the land tax petition. As ugly as it is the OSR has a responsibility to Treasury in relation to revenue. I have never heard of professionals organising a petition. Professionals organise submissions to various Government Departments, not petitions.

I think the best comment from Tony is the following. "Lastly, I will be honest and say....". Are you suggesting you haven't been honest up until the end when you indicate you can't post on this site. Another gem is "it’s great to see such discussions taking place as this information should be more broadly known." It was the fact that these guys didn't want to discuss their product and make the information more broadly known that led to this thread. What a hypocrite.

Don't patronise the people on this forum Tony. Their not stupid.

Then again I suppose this is what Ed and Tony call the game of tax.

Chris Batten
 

Attachments

  • pubcb01025 - Tax Planning Deceased Estates.zip
    61 KB · Views: 523
Chris,

Firstly let me say well done for saying what I was thinking re: Tony's post.

Now onto more important matters. Unzipped the file, had a look at it seems to have come through okay. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but formatting etc. is all okay.

I know what I'm going to be reading tonight.

Looking forward to seeing the next installment.

Mark
 
Tony Melvin said:
Regarding the PIT: It was written by Kevin Munro & Associates – it is a modification of his HDT. We have included additional clauses that provide extra benefits to Property Investors.

Yes, and what are those benefits compared to a standard HDT setup? And what are these clauses?

Perhaps I am thinking a bit too simplistically here, but isn't that the point of this thread? I don't expect my clients to enter into a structure they don't understand the withholding of this knowledge to clients and the public seems to trap them in a web of ignorance. The people who have this PIT who have put their hands up to talk about don't seem to know what they have and that kind of scares me.
 
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Chris
Thanks it opens for me.

Since my comment stirred the pot in the first place I feel i need to give Kudos where IMO they are due.

I had a call from C&N today apologising for any misunderstanding the testimonial may have caused me. They unreservedly apologised and offered for me to speak directly with the partners if I still needed to claryfiy any issues I may still have in understanding trusts. They have indeed moved out of their North Sydney office so I can see how a mistake may have been made

They could have ignored me and left it to Tony's post above

Being a photographer I also understand that Chris needs his intelectual property/name protected, I would not want someone using my images without my permission.

Greg
 
hey! we're all going in the same direction: property investing

Hiya
I have been using Chan & Naylor for a long time now and I have nothing but the highest praise for the firm as some of the most informed accounting advice (Tax and structures) in the country, certainly when it comes to property investing. They have complete integrity as far as I'm concerned.

Whether you use the Chan & Naylor Property Investor's Trust or Discretionary/Hybrid trusts provided by other accountants/solicitors is really a matter of what each one of us needs. There really is no need to try and establish ranks of superiority etc. After all we're all going in the same direction- making money in property.No point slagging good people off.

Rather pick on the government for all the unnecessary taxes it heaps on us.

Also, an aside- the firm Kevin Munro is highly respected in legal circles.

Cheers
yashas
 
Hey Chris,

Thanks very much for that. It's hard to find information on how a DT or HDT etc should be dealt with upon death. So any info on this matter is greatly appreciated.

Cheers - Gordon
 
yashas said:
Whether you use the Chan & Naylor Property Investor's Trust or Discretionary/Hybrid trusts provided by other accountants/solicitors is really a matter of what each one of us needs. There really is no need to try and establish ranks of superiority etc. After all we're all going in the same direction- making money in property. No point slagging good people off.
Welcome to the forums.

We aren't trying to establish ranks of superiority, we are just trying to find out, as the title of the thread suggests, the facts. Once we have information, we can make a decision on whether the trusts offered are what we need. You can't make a decision without facts, all you can do is gamble and gambling is not investing. I refuse to operate on trust.
 
Would I be right in saying PIT users would be losing out now that the land tax breaks are gone? I think the PIT has an extra trust, so the tax return would be more complex and expensive?
 
Yes, and what are those benefits compared to a standard HDT setup? And what are these clauses?

It would be better than than a HDT alone due to allowing transfer of property to a SMSF. But if you compare it with a UT + HDT structure, I really can't see any benefits, only downsides. Only benefit would be distributing income, if you agree that it is legitimate.

GSJ
 
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Chris Batten - Confusion

Hi

Im just a little perplexed

If Chris Batten really did look at the PIT deed he would have noticed that it was produced by Kevin Munroe and Associates. Why would he want to attack a firm of lawyers of Kevin Munroe's standing?

I was told by my solicitor that Chris Batten is not a solicitor and has not passed his BAR exams. Is that why Chris calls himself a "Tax Consultant" and not a "Tax Solicitor". Is that right?, and if so, how does he think that he can challenge Kevin Munroe?
 
It's also interesting how some people come to their conclusions. Nowhere in Chris Batten's thread did he attack Kevin Munro & Associates or was there any inference of an attack on the firm. He was asking relevant and pertinent questions. It perplexes me when people think that asking such questions must therefore be a personal attack.

For example I could think that by making the comment "I was told by my solicitor that Chris Batten is not a solicitor and has not passed his BAR exams" that it was suggesting that Chris's comments carry less weight than another individuals. Or I could simply think that it says that he has not passed his bar exams. Interesting how things are open to interpretation. I wonder what the same solicitor thinks of Professor Chris Evans, Associate Professor Michael Walpole, Dr Margaret McKerchar to name a few who are well respected in tax circles and yet to my knowledge have not passed the BAR exams. So what !!
 
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