QLD PM - is this unfair?

Discussion in 'Property Management' started by starter, 15th Jun, 2015.

  1. starter

    starter Member

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    Just wanted to get people's thoughts on whether this is an unfair expectation on a PM.

    A house I had with a certain PM in brisbane required some restumping last year. As we were out of town we relied on the PM's recommendation of the tradie to use and on them to engage the service. We found out this year that there were issues with the work and the tradie is refusing to take responsibility for it. It also turns out that a formal contract was entered into by the PM with the tradie (as required by law for work of this value) and through our own searches we also found out that the tradie did not take out the required insurance for the work (this wasn't checked by the PM).

    We had asked the PM to submit a complaint about the tradie and the work through the Queensland Building and Construction Commission and after a couple of months of putting it off with excuses about waiting to take more photos etc, they have just come back to us and said that this is not the PM's responsibility.

    Am I unfair to think that this is really poor and shoddy service? Especially as it was also their incompetence with led to these issues. A bit disappointing in any case for a PM who has put themselves out there on this forum as going beyond what is required, apparantly just not when things get difficult.
     
  2. cu@thetop

    cu@thetop Member

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    Project manager to manage your tradies- a PM to manage your tenants I would have thought
     
  3. marg4000

    marg4000 Member

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    A PM is usually not qualified, nor paid, to manage a project of this size. It is doubtful that the PM has the expertise to know if the job has been done properly or not.
    Marg
     
  4. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates ...and people wonder why?

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    But Marg, the PM doesn't charge anything for the engagement and arranging contractors - it's a bargain!! :eek: until you find out what they haven't done.
     
  5. Nick Valsamis

    Nick Valsamis Vantedge

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    It's probably quite common, but it is shoddy service if you compare it with a professional.

    Any good PM or company will have policies in place to minimise all potential risk. This means that every trades person they use provides them with a copy of their required licensing and insurance certificate before any work is done.

    Now as the PM organised for this work then they are responsible to handle the issue.
    If you organised the trades person then you would be responsible for it.
    Either way you paid them for a service, so they can't get out of their responsibilities.

    If I was you, I wouldn't protect their identity if they still refuse to take responsibility for this issue.
     
  6. Xenia IM

    Xenia IM Property Manager

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    A PM company needs to protect it's landlords to the best of it's ability.

    we are in legal proceedings at the moment with bad workmanship, we are refusing to pay the trades person who did the work. He has taken no responsibility to rectify the issue so we did - hired someone else to put it right.

    we would take the tradies to court on our clients behalf and represent our clients - I see this as part of the service.

    Yes they should be fighting for you.
     
  7. Xenia IM

    Xenia IM Property Manager

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    As a business person I'm going to admit that sometimes things go wrong.
    Things do not always run smoothly especially in property management.

    The value of any business is not how they stop things from going wrong, it's not how they procrastinate and evaluate and make stories about applications and people and things. You can't run a business in a fear zone and from a position of being skeptical.

    The value of any business is how they can set things right when things go wrong.
     
  8. Terry_w

    Terry_w Member

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    If the agent entered into a contract in capacity as your agent then they have certain fiduciary duties. They can't just give up when the going gets tough. You may have grounds for compensation.

    But this is not the agent's job - they are there to collect the rent not manage projects. But in this case they appear to have accepted the additional role.
     
  9. Perp

    Perp Member

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    Would it negate (or lessen) their fiduciary duties if they'd said "we'll arrange the works but we accept no responsibility for workmanship and if any disputes arise with tradesman, you are required to manage the dispute"?
     
  10. Terry_w

    Terry_w Member

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    Yes possibly as then you have a specific agreement between the agent and the owner.
     
  11. Nick Valsamis

    Nick Valsamis Vantedge

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    I doubt anyone would say that though because the client would probably go to a different property manager if the current one has no confidence in what they are doing.

    Also if repairs and maintenance are listed in the management agreement then it is part of the service they provide.
     
  12. Perp

    Perp Member

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    It could be in the management agreement. There are all sorts of disclaimers in there.
    Well, there's surely a limit. If half the house gets destroyed in a natural disaster, does one really expect the PM to take on the job of project managing repairs, as part of what they get paid $30 or $40 a week to do?
     
  13. Nick Valsamis

    Nick Valsamis Vantedge

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    Disclaimers don't release you of any responsibility.

    So if the property manager engages a non licensed/insured tradesmen who burns the house down, your insurance won't cover it right.
    And because the tradesperson doesn't have insurance, you sue the property agency who has professional indemnity insurance for this.

    Also theres no reason they cannot project manage repairs. But I was talking about responsibility for tradespeople that the property manager engages.
     
  14. Perp

    Perp Member

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    Don't know why I'm wasting my time on this law degree, or why Terry wasted time doing his!
     
  15. Nick Valsamis

    Nick Valsamis Vantedge

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    Well you need qualifications to work in that field so it's up to you if you want to continue.

    All I'm saying is that if it's a service they provide then they have a duty of care to act in the best interest of the landlord.
    It is not reasonable to assume that a landlord would engage a non licensed or non insured tradesmen so for the agent to do so would not be in the landlords best interest.

    Just to be clear, are you telling everyone that a disclaimer can absolve them of negligence?
     
  16. Perp

    Perp Member

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    No. I asked a very specific question of Terry, who gave an answer. You disputed that answer. I trust Terry. :)
     
  17. Nick Valsamis

    Nick Valsamis Vantedge

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    Yes but my one was addressing the written issue about service.
    Doesn't look like Terry gave a definite answer though because there are other laws to consider as well.

    Either way a landlord shouldn't accept responsibility when the property manager is responsible. Agencies are required to have insurance for this reason, when they make mistakes.
     
  18. willair

    willair xx

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    So who ends up picking up the can,as the PM is employed by the principal and anything entered into by the PM on behalf of the principal will be binding,or it goes into estoppel where everyone down the line is disclaiming responsibility for the legal stuff up they created for themselves ,and when has a real estate agent ever been a agent for the purchaser..
     
  19. Terry_w

    Terry_w Member

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    I don't. I just make **** up.
     
  20. Perp

    Perp Member

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    Darn. I'd better stop citing you as an authority in exams...