Removing a bedroom - would you advise against this?

Hey guys,

I thought I might put my thoughts out for consideration.

I have just bought my PPOR in hope island with help from my parents. The property is a house and these are a few background details:

- 4 bed, 2 bath, 2 car
- cost price of $473,000 (Land $249,000 and house $224,000) - 17k FHOG + QLD Boost (of which I expect to spend at least 10k-15k on additional luxury items)
- 400sqm block with 14m frontage
- 22 square house
- bunch of extras including appliances, stone benchtops, other luxury finishes, etc.
- meets fairly strict covenant for estate - fully rendered, colorbond roof, etc.
- body corporate rates of $40-50 a week for the maintenance of the open public space and waterfront walkways (including free gas bbq parks), 25 meter heated lap pool, function room, use of the two public marina berths for short periods in estate's marina, gym and poolside BBQ area (which dates can be booked for exclusive use for no charge).
- current rental of similar properties has been between 450-520 over the last few months.

Construction of the property is expected to begin early 2012 and finish within a few months - then the plan is for my girlfriend and I to move in there. I would expect to be living there for 3-6 years before upgrading - at such time I would either sell the property and redirect profit towards new PPOR and hopefully deposits on 1 or 2 IPS. The other option would be to convert into investment property for at least 6 years and then sell for CG exemption or rent and hold forever and borrow against equity/income for deposits on future IPs.


Now here to the point where I would appreciate your opinions. I am seriously considering changing the layout of the property from 4 bed to 3 bed - removing the 4th bed/study wall to create a dining room adjacent to the kitchen and the new room will have additional sliding doors out to the alfresco which will open out the plan a lot more for both inside and out, as well as additional natural light and hopefully feel like a bigger house - this new additional space would than allow me reduce the living room by 0.5-0.7m in order for the master bedroom to receive this extra space. Ultimately the house will become 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car - but I believe a much better layout for the limited 200 sq m of size. Besides there is no reason for me to have 4 bedrooms as it will just be my girlfriend and I and children are a long way off.

Now at risk of sounding like a spoiled brat and coping bullets from all directions - 200 sq m seems fairly small to me to fit a 4 bed house into - I might just have my mind out of proportion due to living in my parents house which is about 4x this. Again if the master bedroom is left unchanged dimensions will be 3.6 x 3.3 (not including ensuite + small WIR) which again seems small. Are these dimensions fairly small or have I just been ruined already? :eek:

I have heard that number of bedrooms is one of the most important factors for potential buyers and renters of properties. Will my removal of 1 bedroom lose value because of this? Or will it even add value as it opens up the space with designated dining room? Or no change at all? Will I lose rent if I decide to rent it in the future and do I really limit the potential tenants?

Hope Island still has a predominantly older demographic so maybe removing a bedroom wont have such a significant effect as an older couple down sizing may not want 4 bedrooms?

Another factor is I am planning on spending a fair amount of money of luxury extras such as stone features to pillars, glass splash back, outdoor built in bbq area with piped gas/water, higher ceilings, ducted air con,etc.

So my thought was that maybe if the house was at a really high standard it might stand out from the street because of these extras and the 4th bed may not matter?

The other side of the coin is my girlfriend and I really want to enjoy living in this property and economically from a property investors perspective it may not be the best option but we want the lifestyle extras even if it costs a bit more. I am just wondering if some of these costs will be lost and not made back if we go to sell/rent in the near future (5years or so).

My parents are encouraging me to put in the extras and enjoy the house with my girlfriend but I am still slightly unsure if I would be better in the long run for not doing this - financially I will not struggle to make payments on the house.

I would really appreciate any comments on whether you think these luxury options and removal of bedroom will have an effect on the value of the property in the short-medium future.

Cheers,

Thanks for taking the time to read through such a long post - after writing it I understand my thoughts a bit better.

YPG



Edit: on a side note I am pretty happy with the package as I have just found out that the lakefront lots (with no water access) are now selling for 340k and the canal front lots are now selling for 560k - both are similiar size land of 400-500 sq m and although mine is a dry block I am pretty stoked I can get a house+land for the price I did.
 
Now here to the point where I would appreciate your opinions. I am seriously considering changing the layout of the property from 4 bed to 3 bed - removing the 4th bed/study wall to create a dining room adjacent to the kitchen and the new room will have additional sliding doors out to the alfresco which will open out the plan a lot more for both inside and out, as well as additional natural light and hopefully feel like a bigger house - this new additional space would than allow me reduce the living room by 0.5-0.7m in order for the master bedroom to receive this extra space. Ultimately the house will become 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car - but I believe a much better layout for the limited 200 sq m of size.

I'd like to open up my 4th bedroom and enlarge my living space in my PPOR too.
I don't need the 4th bedroom and could do with the extra space since I love space. :D

4 bedrooms ARE better renters but main thing is as long as it has 2 bathrooms and 2 cars, 3 bedrooms would still be ok IMO, lots of people appreciate the extra living space like me.
 
I would be taking the plans to a couple of local agents and asking the questions. Get opinions from both leasing people and sales people.

One issue we have with an IP where we created a fourth bedroom was that many people assume a four bedroom house will have more than one living area. Our house doesn't but does have a huge deck.

More bedrooms would generally warrant more living space for the people filling those bedrooms.

If your demographic doesn't warrant this, I wonder why the developer is building it like that?
 
Sounds like a good price even for a dry block in that area. I've done a few reno's at Hope Is. and think you'd be better off keeping the 4th BR .. as wylie mentioned the developer would've done his research and figured out the demographics but it's cheap and easy to knock up a wall if you want to convert it back again. Maybe a dwarf wall with an overhang would be better, that way it can be used as either a DR or study.
 
This is the only 1 I could find available for rent at the moment.

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-hope+island-405872946

It was on for $470 last week - must have reduced it.

I think developer was aiming towards young families as this estate particularly has an increasing amount of young families.

There are quite a few of these houses around that are clearly owned by investors as there is just the bare minimum to attract the tenant.

Ie. no stone benchtops, cheaps blinds + fans, security screens, etc.

Good suggestion about dwarf wall - I might take that on board.
 
Good suggestion about dwarf wall - I might take that on board.
Just make sure if you go this route that the floor coverings are down first and the bottom plate is attached on top so you don't have any tile cuts around it if you remove in future.
 
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Damn some people have big houses. We have a 4x2 with two living areas and it is about 140sqm. The fourth bedroom was not optional, it is quite hard to find 4br houses in this area.

If I built again I'd make it slightly bigger, with the 3 kid's bedrooms each about half a metre wider and of all things, the toilet is about 5cm too small - the little step we have in there clips the door. Its a bit squeezy in their bedrooms, but the 'adult' part of the house is fine.
 
By the time you exclude the garage, alfresco and portico - the indoor living area is only 145 sq m. I guess this is the real figure I meant about fitting 4 beds into
 
I think I was a bit like you and used to living in big houses with lots of space. I lived in a 5 bed house for a while and the cleaning really got to me and I really dislike how big it was now. I'm living in a 3 bed home at the moment with huge open plan living area's. I really like the spaciousness. When I purchased it, it was $50,000 cheaper than another 4 bed house that sold a couple of streets away with the same roof area. I prefer the spaciousness to squishy little rooms. about 2/3 of the large garage here has been converted to an office/4th bed though by previous owners. The garage is carpeted with marine carpet so it can double as a party room.
 
Hey guys,

I thought I might put my thoughts out for consideration.

I have just bought my PPOR in hope island with help from my parents. The property is a house and these are a few background details:

Construction of the property is expected to begin early 2012 and finish within a few months - then the plan is for my girlfriend and I to move in there. I would expect to be living there for 3-6 years before upgrading - at such time I would either sell the property and redirect profit towards new PPOR and hopefully deposits on 1 or 2 IPS.

Now here to the point where I would appreciate your opinions. I am seriously considering changing the layout of the property from 4 bed to 3 bed - removing the 4th bed/study wall to create a dining room adjacent to the kitchen and the new room will have additional sliding doors out to the alfresco which will open out the plan a lot more for both inside and out, as well as additional natural light and hopefully feel like a bigger house - this new additional space would than allow me reduce the living room by 0.5-0.7m in order for the master bedroom to receive this extra space. Ultimately the house will become 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car - but I believe a much better layout for the limited 200 sq m of size. Besides there is no reason for me to have 4 bedrooms as it will just be my girlfriend and I and children are a long way off.

Now at risk of sounding like a spoiled brat and coping bullets from all directions - 200 sq m seems fairly small to me to fit a 4 bed house into - I might just have my mind out of proportion due to living in my parents house which is about 4x this. Again if the master bedroom is left unchanged dimensions will be 3.6 x 3.3 (not including ensuite + small WIR) which again seems small. Are these dimensions fairly small or have I just been ruined already? :eek:

I think it will be easier to make a decision if you dont mix your goals. It seems from what you've said that you are buying this as a PPOR and most likely in the future, you will sell rather than rent it out. In this case, the primary issue is what is going to be comfortable for you to live in, rather than what is the best investment choice. Obviously, it should make financial sense as well... but your primary focus should be "will you enjoy living there?"

So, I say go ahead and have a larger living area and less bedrooms. and, if you can afford it, spend the money on the extra luxury factor. There will always be people who want to buy or rent a 3 bedroom house. Its impossible to predict whether you will make more money by keeping it 4 bedrooms or by having more living area..so focus on how you want to live.

In terms of the bedroom size, my suggestion would be to have a look at the floor plans of a few properties for sale in your area. Find a room which is 3.6x3.3 and see what you think. We have one room in our house, the dining room, which is exactly that size. I think it would be fine for a master bedroom. I tried to upload a photo of the dining room, but it didnt work. You can see if on this link though... http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73680&highlight=virtual+furniture
The photo is a little stretched, so its probably better to see something in real life.

So, I'd keep that extra space in the living area to maximise the open plan feel. I think there it will have more impact in the living area rather than the bedroom.
 
Our master bedroom is 3.2x3.6. It is exactly big enough for a queen size bed, two bedsides and a dressing table. All the entry level plans had master bedrooms this size. The way the power points are on the plan gives you a grand total of one possible furniture arrangement permutation.

Smallest bedroom is 3.1x3.3 and that one is fine - the bedrooms we are really pushing for space in are 3.5x2.9 and 3.1x4.0. We had one cupboard quite simply not fit *anywhere* in one room because it was 1.5cm too big. Ended up swapping a few cupboards around and its fine now. Might get some built-ins later but .. might not.

Next house I refuse to have the kid's bedrooms smaller than about 3.6x4.0, its just too awkward fitting all their stuff in there. Can't have one of them come out in the 'family' area cos I have a huge age gap between kids, so she barricades herself in her room instead.
 
Smallest bedroom is 3.1x3.3 and that one is fine - the bedrooms we are really pushing for space in are 3.5x2.9 and 3.1x4.0. We had one cupboard quite simply not fit *anywhere* in one room because it was 1.5cm too big. Ended up swapping a few cupboards around and its fine now. Might get some built-ins later but .. might not.

Haha yeah see 2 of the bedrooms are 2.9x3.1, and one is 2.9x4.1 (dining room one) and master is 3.3x3.6 (but I think i will move wall 0.5 into living) so master becomes 3.8x3.6. These dimensions don't include the built in and walk in cupboards so that is good. But they do seem like small rooms, especially when my room at my parents place is 6x5.5 haha. But hey im incredibly excited to have my own house and it is better than just a bedroom which is what I got now and I won't really use the other two small bedrooms much - might have a guest bed and a small study.

Penny, thanks for the advice - I probably shouldn't mix my goals. And I have been to look at some rooms 3.6x3.3 and as mentioned I think it would only just fit my bed, 2 bedsides and maybe a dresser, so I think I might go ahead with the 0.5 add for that little bit more room.
 
Haha yeah see 2 of the bedrooms are 2.9x3.1, and one is 2.9x4.1 (dining room one) and master is 3.3x3.6 (but I think i will move wall 0.5 into living) so master becomes 3.8x3.6. These dimensions don't include the built in and walk in cupboards so that is good. But they do seem like small rooms, especially when my room at my parents place is 6x5.5 haha. But hey im incredibly excited to have my own house and it is better than just a bedroom which is what I got now and I won't really use the other two small bedrooms much - might have a guest bed and a small study.

Penny, thanks for the advice - I probably shouldn't mix my goals. And I have been to look at some rooms 3.6x3.3 and as mentioned I think it would only just fit my bed, 2 bedsides and maybe a dresser, so I think I might go ahead with the 0.5 add for that little bit more room.

maybe speak to an independent designer to get their opinion orpay for a bit of their time to go through the plans and see if they work or if there are any obvious issues.
 
But they do seem like small rooms, especially when my room at my parents place is 6x5.5 haha.
Rooms at a previous house were mostly 5.2x4.2 and they were borderline impossible to heat. We ended up sticking a wall through one and making it into two bedrooms and staying out of the other big room and moving into the hallway (4.2x2.5 with no external openings so draft free). I'm completely sworn off really large rooms after that. This was in a town that regularly dropped to 15-20 below zero so it would be < 10 degrees inside without heaters on constantly.

Smaller rooms are great, don't have crazy heating bills. Biggest room in our new house is about 6x7m and that's the kitchen/dining/lounge room.
 
IMO with my experience, i moved from my parents 'big house' into a very affordable house i purchased which was quite a downsize
now being a rural town just big enough to be acquiring a maccas the blocks are decent size and the houses are pretty decent aswell all the older houses have quite small rooms and all the newer development areas are starting to get smaller again but alot of the 15yr old to now houses are alot bigger

my kids room at the parents was 4x3.6 with a full length wall of built ins
my room layout was 3.6m with the door on one end and outside window on the other 3.6m wall the built ins along the 4m wall the whole way
(making it 4x3 walkable area), enough room for a QS bed and big desk but not much room to walk with all that
with a single bed there was ample room

now if i was to build a kids room (bedroom 2 or more) it would depend on the age of the kid/s and the time u expected to live there
if they were very young or you were expecting that room would be fine
if they were getting into there teenage years probably wanting a tv and computer in there room and a desk etc (like me) then i would change a few things
-put sliding doors on the built ins and/or increase the room to 4x4 (also making it this big would allow to small kids to share a room if needed and still not be cramped
-build smaller built ins (rather than along the 4m wall do it on the 3.6m wall or the 4m wall with the door) as i didnt need to use all the built ins and in the end had alot of crap stored there because i could not because i needed it

because the buit ins were swinging doors you needed alot of room to open the door and then more to stand to look in there adding an extra .4 would make all the difference and sliding doors would get away without it

now i love big space so your all probably thinking 4x4 for a kids room!!! how big is is mater bedroom going to be!!

but i dont think a master bedroom has to be as big as a kids room
you might have a tv but what else do you need? if you have a WIR you dont need built ins
you wouldnt need a desk for computer or to study as you would have an office
so 4x4 would be fine for a master bedroom also and maybe slightly bigger if you wanted built ins
saying that its just to use space wisely while not feeling cramped, if your going for a particular style then u may have to go bigger

master is 3.3x3.6 (but I think i will move wall 0.5 into living) so master becomes 3.8x3.6. These dimensions don't include the built in and walk in cupboards so that is good. But they do seem like small rooms, especially when my room at my parents place is 6x5.5 haha. But hey im incredibly excited to have my own house and it is better than just a bedroom which is what I got now and I won't really use the other two small bedrooms much - might have a guest bed and a small study.

my current room is 4x2.9 with built ins (3.4x2.9) walkable area
the built ins are along the 2.9m wall there is enough gap between bed and built ins (even being swinging doors) but could do with a bit more room either side of the bed 4x3.5 (3.4x3.5) would be an ideal size to not feel cramped up
as i have an office with my computer and desk etc i dont need any more room as its only going to be used as sleeping

so it really just depends on the situation and whether u want the extra room or need the extra room
 
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