Rental yield only 3% - should I sell (cut loses) vs trying to hold?

Would you sell this property & when? (then will rebuy something with higher yield)


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mixedup - Perhaps you should use Excel and run some numbers.

Scenario 1 - hold on for X years.
Scenario 2 - sell, take the loss and buy again (new transaction costs) a property that you expect to perform better (higher yield, better short term growth).

We all know the selling and buying again will cost money, but it will be interesting to see how long it will take.

i.e. which scenario will have you in a better position in 5 and 10 years time?

a) your current property, current 3% yield, average CG of 4%.
b) sell, buy a 400k property with a lower LVR, a higher yield of 5% and average CG of 4%

Would you be ahead via option b in 10 years? Or still behind due to transaction costs?
 
Start with some loss aversion bias, mix with some Ownership bias and a pinch of Status Quo bias and you've got the OPs situation defined.

Mixed up, ask yourself this - If you didnt have this IP or the loan, would you buy it at the price you believe its currently valued at? How about if you could buy it for a $20K discount (representing the costs of selling)? Would you rebuy?

If you wouldn't, then what reason would you have for not selling it now? Fear of taking a loss, false belief that its going to be worth more because YOU own it, easier to close your eyes and hope?

If you were to start again, at what price would you purchase this property. $100K discount ? Well if so, any price you could sell at above that price could be a profit on what you'll probably get if you sell a bit further down the track.
 
mixedup - Perhaps you should use Excel and run some numbers.

Scenario 1 - hold on for X years.
Scenario 2 - sell, take the loss and buy again (new transaction costs) a property that you expect to perform better (higher yield, better short term growth).

We all know the selling and buying again will cost money, but it will be interesting to see how long it will take.

i.e. which scenario will have you in a better position in 5 and 10 years time?

a) your current property, current 3% yield, average CG of 4%.
b) sell, buy a 400k property with a lower LVR, a higher yield of 5% and average CG of 4%

Would you be ahead via option b in 10 years? Or still behind due to transaction costs?

Scenario 3: stay out of an underpeforming asset class for the forseeable future.
 
Hi Mixedup

As you can now see you have no good options, you are just trying to pick an option that is "least bad". I've been there so I know what it's like.

You have learnt a very important lesson here and the value of the lesson will likely mean far more to your future wealth than any pain you are going through right now, as big as it may or may not seem. No lecture or "investing master class" could ever teach as well as this real experience has done, if you deal with it the right way. So look at it as a valuable investment in your education!

I don't have the answer for you and neither does anyone else here, only you have the answer. As someone here has in their sig, if you tossed a coin on it, while the coin was spinning, which side would you want it to land?

My only real comment is to make sure that this lesson doesn't put you off investing, as you will now be very likely to be so much better at it in future than you were in the past. You know, back when you hadn't had the lesson and didn't know what you didn't know, let alone how it actually feels to have sacrificed for your future only to end up with fewer options than you had before.

So choose whatever path allows you to keep growing and making better investments each time, constantly learning real lessons, improving your returns and increasing your options. For some, they would have to take a step back at this point in order to keep going forward. Others would just be able to chalk it up to experience, say "onward" and do better next time.

Only you know the answer for you. But the point is that if you keep going, one day the growth curve may well start looking exponential and you will be very glad for this lesson. But if you stop now, this is where you will always be...
 
The problem with a spreadsheet is that a number needs to be put down for the capital growth, and most people assume something like 7% to 10%. So the figures for holding on to the property look great.

The reality is that right now there are few places around that are giving >3% growth, and many places are negative growth, and any growth less than inflation is effectively negative growth in real terms.

Most people don't need a spreadsheet to work out that holding negatively geared property in a time of negative capital growth does not make a good investment.

The real question to ask is: how long will it take for the property market to turn and for there be enough capital growth to cover 5 years of slightly negative growth, and $34,000 a year negative cash-flow?

I just threw together a spreadsheet to work it out. Play around with the cg value in Year 6 to see what's needed to break even. Any field in yellow can be changed.

Comments welcome. This is not financial, legal (or even good) advice.
 

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The problem with a spreadsheet is that a number needs to be put down for the capital growth, and most people assume something like 7% to 10%. So the figures for holding on to the property look great.

The reality is that right now there are few places around that are giving >3% growth, and many places are negative growth, and any growth less than inflation is effectively negative growth in real terms.

Most people don't need a spreadsheet to work out that holding negatively geared property in a time of negative capital growth does not make a good investment.

The real question to ask is: how long will it take for the property market to turn and for there be enough capital growth to cover 5 years of slightly negative growth, and $34,000 a year negative cash-flow?

I just threw together a spreadsheet to work it out. Play around with the cg value in Year 6 to see what's needed to break even. Any field in yellow can be changed.

Comments welcome. This is not financial, legal (or even good) advice.

Hi Vaughan

You have not allowed for any capital growth in the 1st year and is your
cash flow before or after tax?

It is a myth that any growth less than inflation is effectively negative growth in real terms.
 
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I updated the spreadsheet attached to the earlier post to add a row for inflation nd made the cash-flow match the OP's figures.

The first column is Year 0 -- the starting point. There is no capital growth because you have just bought it. The rest of the columns (Year 1 etc) are the position after a year of capital growth, inflation and cash-flow.

The cash-flow should be whatever the property costs to hold. If you negative gear then put the amount that's come out of your pocket after negative gearing has worked its magic.

My aim is to illustrate that if the cash-flow is significantly negative then holding onto the property during periods where capital growth is negative or low (below inflation) results in a position that will require obscene and unrealistic amounts of rapid capital growth to recover from, or a significant amount of time with smaller growth above inflation.
 
It's also worth noting that after a year of -5% growth, then a year of +5% growth, we're not back to our original value.

Original value = $100,000
Year 1 value after -5% = $100,000 - $5,000 = $95,000

Any subsequent capital growth is from the current value, not the original purchase price.

Year 2 value after +5% = $95,000 + $4,750 = $99,750
 
have you thought of adding a granny flat to up the yield

Yep; just chuck one up over the weekend. Easy. Get a mate to help though.

Get an early start to load up with equipment and materials at Bunnings on saturday morning to beat the crowds.

Won't cost much, no need for any permits, all done by dinner time on sunday night, ready to kick back and watch masterchef.....

Seriously though; by the time he's applied for and been granted permits, gotten plans drawn up with approvals, paid all the associated fees, tackled all the neighbors' objections and then finally builds (assuming his highly neg geared position allows him to either find the cash or get further lending - doubtful)...it'll be a year easily.
 
My investing philosophies are very much influenced by the old Italian relatives I have who have made a boat lad of money in property. That's relatives by marriage btw.

They have always sat around,drank wine, smoke and talk about business, family, property etc.....they dont know what a spreadsheet is, what negative cash flow means (but they knw the concept), and all the oter fancy and in depth terms and strategies and formulas that modern property investing has become.

They look at property investing in simple terms, like "interest rates up, property prices down, interest rates down, property prices up" etc

Most of them have had little formal education but what they do know intuitively and discuss is what makes a good investment and what makes a bad one. They will not hold on to or even buy a bad one. They will not buy at the wrong time of the cycle or they will not buy with low yield. (but not in those terms).

They have become wealthy with property and they generally pass their properties to their kids when they retire so they can gt a pension or whatever. They also do this to give the grown kids a head start in life.

What I'm getting at here, is if your property is instinctively and dollar wise a bad buy (regardless of hoping for future cap gains), as it is now. Get rid of it and move on. Come back into the market when times are better and benefit then. I think you know you should sell it, the problem is tho you will most get less for it than what you think. That's a problem in itself. But I wouldn't be copping a $34k hair cut per year. that doesn't make financial and investing sense.

I wouldn't be copping that even if the market was moving up. I just don't think it makes investing sense regardless of property price direction. Can I ask why you bought it?

When i look at investments, i think If it wouldn't make sense to my old uneducated Italian paesani, then it doesn't make sense to me. It's all pretty simple. People run into trouble when they don't follow simple.






I updated the spreadsheet attached to the earlier post to add a row for inflation nd made the cash-flow match the OP's figures.

The first column is Year 0 -- the starting point. There is no capital growth because you have just bought it. The rest of the columns (Year 1 etc) are the position after a year of capital growth, inflation and cash-flow.

The cash-flow should be whatever the property costs to hold. If you negative gear then put the amount that's come out of your pocket after negative gearing has worked its magic.

My aim is to illustrate that if the cash-flow is significantly negative then holding onto the property during periods where capital growth is negative or low (below inflation) results in a position that will require obscene and unrealistic amounts of rapid capital growth to recover from, or a significant amount of time with smaller growth above inflation.
 
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thanks for the great feedback guys

@DavidMc - I was planning to crunch the numbers so I'll get onto this - good idea.

PS. Couldn't resist asking the question about what would be the minimum yield people would consider if buying a new rental property at the moment - http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79342


It depends on your investment strategy. Decide what it is before buying a property.

The two strategies are (basically): buy, hold and wait for capital growth, then sell; or buy and hold, gain income from rent.

Yes, this is a far too simple description but the strategies come down to either relying on capital growth, or on rent yield. Renovations and development are done to improve the capital value or rental yield, or both.

Usually the capital growth strategies have high holding costs, and negative gearing is used to ease some of the pain. (Note that the investment strategy isn't negative gearing, the strategy is capital growth.)

The problem is that the capital growth strategies rely on capital growth to work. There are times when the property cycle will not support a capital growth strategy.

I also think there is a mind-set difference between investors, too. Those going for cash-flow realise the need to buy wisely, keep costs down, always concentrate on returns. Those going for capital gains often want the "best" properties and are prepared to pay above market to get them, knowing that they will double in value, yada yada yada. Money is easy to spend.
 
scenario 4: work out that there is plenty of opportunities in all asset classes, including said underperforming ones

For skilled/lucky investors that's true. For the average punters not so much. We've just had the biggest property bull market ever and now "mum and dad" investors are confusing a bull market for brains. Like the stock market punters who made money in the '90's and put it down to skill then gave it back after the nasdaq crashed.
 
Hi Mixedup

Seems that your income is only at the 30% tax scale. What about getting a substantially higher paid job.

Doesn't fix the fundamentally bad investment but does allow you to get on and fund other investments.

Cheers
 
I have no idea what you bought or the prospects in the location you bought in. But I can tell you that I have been in the market for 18 years and regret the one property I did sell. Looks like you bought a property with development potential, which are usually low yield high potential CG anyway. Only issue I see is can you afford to hold and keep investing in the long run? My usual advice would be that if you can afford to hold and keep investing, you will look back in 20 years and wonder what all the fuss was about.
 
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